Virgin America continues some serious bleeding

[ualdriver]

[SIZE=-1]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Low-cost U.S. airline Virgin America narrowed its loss in the first quarter on sharply higher revenue and lower unit costs.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]The airline, branded by Britain's Virgin Group , reported a $40.3 million (24.6 million pound) net loss compared with a $52 million net loss in the comparable period of 2008.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Excluding items, the airline reported a loss of $31.6 million.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Revenue per seat mile was 7.2 cents compared with 6.4 cents a year ago. Cost per available seat mile was 9.5 cents compared with 12.5 cents a year ago.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]The company said revenue nearly doubled to $100 million from $52 million.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Launched in 2007, Virgin America is privately held but is required by the government to publicize its financial results.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]The company said it had $63 million in total liquidity at the end of the first quarter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1](Reporting by John Crawley; Editing by Steve Orlofsky)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]Cush is making Tilton look good. And that's a 31.6M loss on 100M of revenue. I'd love to see more, but alas, being a private company and all makes that impossible. If they're burning through the cash their net losses suggest they are, maybe they have 2-3 quarters left, maybe less if their debtors have restrictions on minimum EBITDA or cash levels. Maybe they'll be able to find another investor with a couple hundred million to see them through another year.
[/SIZE]

 

[mvedepo]

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for all the attention you give us. It is truly flattering.

If we were as insignificant as you would like us to believe I am sure you would have better things to do then waste your time posting jab after jab after jab at us. Thanks for the effort. It really shows that you care.

Have a great day my friend!
:beer:

 

[ualdriver]

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for all the attention you give us. It is truly flattering.

If we were as insignificant as you would like us to believe I am sure you would have better things to do then waste your time posting jab after jab after jab at us. Thanks for the effort. It really shows that you care.

Have a great day my friend!
:beer:

Find a post where I said LCC's such as yours are insignificant. In fact, it's usually the Skybus, Virgin America, Allegiant guys themselves that make that implication in order to defend their subpar wages and/or their company's actions. I usually make arguments like, "airlines like Skybus, Virgin America, Allegiant, etc., hurt airlines like mine because your wages drag down mine," whilst I get responses to that argument like, "we're too small to affect your wages," "how can 100 pilots drag down the wages of 7000 pilots," etc., etc. I think airlines like Virgin America are far from insignificant, but unfortunately in a negative way for me, my peers, and my company.

Further, I believe airlines such as yours unnecessarily trash yields for EVERYONE everytime you guys enter a market. You use your discount airline pilot wages to subsidize your company's bottom line which helps Cush to undercut the prevailing fare between a particular city pair in order to steal market share. Everyone else then has to lower their fares (or a portion of their capacity) down to your ridiculously low levels and then the whole industry bleeds. Everytime a Skybus, a Virgin America, a Western Pacific, a insert new and improved LCC here, comes along, you take your pound of flesh from me and my peers and then go bankrupt. You ever wonder why the airline industry has such a hard time making a sustained, continuous profit? I don't wonder. My airline has the 1000 cuts to prove it.

 

[WSurf]

So who do we blame? Do we blame the pilots that fly for these companies? Do we blame our government and unions for allowing these things to happen? Many pilots simply can't do anything else but fly planes, and if you're out of work many will take any job to try and provide security for themselves and there families.

And what do I do as a regional pilot? Making 75k flying a Turbo Prop do I go to Virgin America and lose money? Do I go to UAL, Delta, etc. and risk dangling on the bottom of a seniorty list?

Maybe instead of focusing on Virgin American you might wanna focus on the Fact that UAL has allowed RJ's to basically take over many of the Domestic routes that were once flown by UAL pilots. We have seen the arrival of CRJ700/900's, EMB170-190 pretty much start to dominate the domestic flying at many airlines. This outsource of flying as done more damage to Mainline pilots and people like me that wanna move up to the big leagues then someone like Alliegant, Skybus or Virgin America.

Like my buddy at UAL said, "Great Job, sh$tty Career".

 

[a320drivr]

Doesnt that leave you with roughly only 20 mil in the bank?

 

[Grandpa +65]

Cash: The airline ended 1Q09 with $38 million in unrestricted cash and $63 million in total liquidity, with full funding for its operation through its projected profitability date.
How longer VA going to last (months/Years) with $38 Millions Unrestricted?
No Flames! just a question.

 

[ualdriver]

Maybe instead of focusing on Virgin American you might wanna focus on the Fact that UAL has allowed RJ's to basically take over many of the Domestic routes that were once flown by UAL pilots. We have seen the arrival of CRJ700/900's, EMB170-190 pretty much start to dominate the domestic flying at many airlines. This outsource of flying as done more damage to Mainline pilots and people like me that wanna move up to the big leagues then someone like Alliegant, Skybus or Virgin America.

Like my buddy at UAL said, "Great Job, sh$tty Career".

I agree with your buddy at UAL.

I don't' think my posts focus solely on VA? I think I spread the crappy wages/work rules thing around pretty well. I mean, I've had plenty of angry Virgin America, Allegiant, JetBlue, Valujet, etc., pilots respond to my posts. I think I've spread the love around quite well. This thread just happens to be about Virgin America, that's all.

Your point about RJ's is taken. Collectively, we at the mainline have let the RJ thing get out of hand. I don't agree with many of the reasons posted here as to why that happened, but regardless of the reason, we have to stop it now. I think outside of 1113, scope relief is over.

But it isn't RJ's killing fares out of the California Bay area. It wasn't RJ's dragging down yields up and down the east coast in the early 2000's or one of our hub cities like Denver. So I think comparing the problem that we ALL have with airlines like Virgin America is not the same as the problem we have with RJ's. The end result is the same- lost mainline jobs- but the problems are entirely different.

 

[popgoesbubble]

I flew on Virgin America once had a great experience flew from SFO to JFK, Clean Planes good service just wished they flew into JAX where I'm based so I could use them more. Hope they make it as they provide a better service than I ever had on UAL.

 

[ualdriver]

I flew on Virgin America once had a great experience flew from SFO to JFK, Clean Planes good service just wished they flew into JAX where I'm based so I could use them more. Hope they make it as they provide a better service than I ever had on UAL.

I have little doubt that you received better service on Virgin America than you would on United. They have shiny new airplanes, and happy, perky employees and I'm told a fantastic relationship with management. Their management loves their pilots, and they should! In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the pilots went back during the turn to make sure the cabin was extra clean for your flight.

On the other hand, at our airline, every employee group on the UAL property is trying to avoid our management's desire to drag our wages, work rules, and retirement down to Virgin America's level. So you'll have to excuse us if we're not as happy to work for crap wages as the Virgin America employees obviously are. We're kind of in the middle of some ugliness right now.

Why did you delete what you wrote in the initial post? Did you get a PM from one of your VA buddies saying not to debate the topic with me or something? That's great that you get your financial information concerning United from USA Today. If you want to get into a deeper debate concerning UAL's financials compared to VA's, and use real sources besides multi-colored newspapers, I'll be happy to do that. I'll start the debate by saying UA's suck and generally provide some of the worst returns in the industry. However, they're not nearly as bad as the deep, structural problems that exist at VA.

 

[tzskipper]

I agree with your buddy at UAL.

I don't' think my posts focus solely on VA? I think I spread the crappy wages/work rules thing around pretty well. I mean, I've had plenty of angry Virgin America, Allegiant, JetBlue, Valujet, etc., pilots respond to my posts. I think I've spread the love around quite well. This thread just happens to be about Virgin America, that's all.

Your point about RJ's is taken. Collectively, we at the mainline have let the RJ thing get out of hand. I don't agree with many of the reasons posted here as to why that happened, but regardless of the reason, we have to stop it now. I think outside of 1113, scope relief is over.

But it isn't RJ's killing fares out of the California Bay area. It wasn't RJ's dragging down yields up and down the east coast in the early 2000's or one of our hub cities like Denver. So I think comparing the problem that we ALL have with airlines like Virgin America is not the same as the problem we have with RJ's. The end result is the same- lost mainline jobs- but the problems are entirely different.

With all due respect (and a serious question...), why is Southwest absent from your analysis? Do they not impact yields in the Bay area and Denver?

Fwiw, I don't UAL's domestic yield is nearly as big of a problem/issue as UAL's international yields. For that you can blame about everyone else except the LCC's. At least that is what many of the analysts state.

S

 

[ualdriver]

With all due respect (and a serious question...), why is Southwest absent from your analysis? Do they not impact yields in the Bay area and Denver?

Fwiw, I don't UAL's domestic yield is nearly as big of a problem/issue as UAL's international yields. For that you can blame about everyone else except the LCC's. At least that is what many of the analysts state.

S

Because I think SWA prices their product rationally. Virgin America obviously is not. Minus 30% margins? I mean, c'mon- WTF is that? We have enough problems to deal with (all of us) in this industry than to deal with a competitor who's willing to slash fares in a desperate attempt to gain a foothold in markets that are already saturated enough. If I was a SWA pilot, I wouldn't be anamored with VA either because they're having to deal with the ridiculous fare wars VA has sponsored in the Bay Area as well.

I also have a special place in my heart for pilots who flagrantly undercut the going rate so I wasn't a big fan of SWA in my early years at UAL, either. Their pilot compensation packages kind of sucked IMO and it sucked that they were undercutting the rest of us who were trying to maintain high wages, pensions, and great work rules. I remember that there were lots of comparisons to JetBlue and SWA during our bankruptcy proceedings that IMO hurt us. It seems as if finally SWA is trying to hold a bar up. Ten years ago IMO it was different.

He11, everything international is down, UAL or otherwise. Just in the Pacific, Al Nippon, Japan Airlines, Singapore, Cathay, etc., are all cutting capacity 10%. Business travellers are not ponying up the money for premium cabin service, which is our bread and butter. And now to add insult to injury, fuel prices are creeping up. I would agree with you that blaming a LCC for these particular problems would be apples and oranges.

So it's kind of annoying that we in this industry have to deal with all kinds of problems like the above, and ON TOP OF THAT have to deal with these predatory carriers that whip out their butter knives and start hacking away at us.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

bye bye VA...

 

[The Victors]

With all due respect (and a serious question...), why is Southwest absent from your analysis? Do they not impact yields in the Bay area and Denver?

Fwiw, I don't UAL's domestic yield is nearly as big of a problem/issue as UAL's international yields. For that you can blame about everyone else except the LCC's. At least that is what many of the analysts state.

S

because swa pilots are the highest paid narrow body pilots in the industry. The FA's at swa make more than VA captains. That's pathetic!

 

[Mud]

If that's true then that is ridiculous. No FA in the world is worth 100K a year.

 

[OurMoney1]

Dont care if you fly boxes or people...VA is an assualt on cockpit wages. Virgin America bleeding out and disappearing would be good for our collective whole.

 

[B727Driver]

If that's true then that is ridiculous. No FA in the world is worth 100K a year.

The F/A's that make that kind of money work more than their published lines. Some work 2 lines or pick up trips to bring their schedules paying 150 trips or more. Without this ability to modify their schedules, yes they would make considerably less.

 

[Draginass]

VA should go into the dustbin of airline history. Of course, after all the bankruptcies, so should have US Airways. That would have at least taken some capacity out of the system and allowed the healthier players to have a chance.

 

[CaptSeth]

Having been without meaningful employment for almost 15 months now, I would feel uncomfortable wishing for something that would result in additional job losses.

I feel extremely comfortable telling VA pilots that it is their duty to their families, themselves, and the profession to unionize and negotiate a contract that yields appropriate wages and working conditions for their occupation. And sooner rather than later.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The F/A's that make that kind of money work more than their published lines. Some work 2 lines or pick up trips to bring their schedules paying 150 trips or more. Without this ability to modify their schedules, yes they would make considerably less.

How do you do that ?


PHXFLYR

 

[vixin]

They dont have 30/7. Some make more then 100K. Heck on charters the FO is usually the lowest paid crew member. Some senior mamas make 150K doing mostly charters. Plus they just voted in a better contract with better rules. They have somethings in their contract you can only shake your head at. Like flipping their own trip at the begining of the month for double time. They put it in then take it back for double...BS if you ask me, but its in the contract. Plus double for this and triple for that. I just flew with an FA that was at 240 trips and had a three day that paid 58 tfp. She only had a handful of days off for the month though.

 

[flyipilot]

If that's true then that is ridiculous. No FA in the world is worth 100K a year.

VA pilots do not make a 100k a year...at least not yet. You have to be there about 5 years to hit that mark (based on month min). VA has not even been around that long, so, most CA are about 80k and FO about 40k.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

VA pilots do not make a 100k a year...at least not yet. You have to be there about 5 years to hit that mark (based on month min). VA has not even been around that long, so, most CA are about 80k and FO about 40k.

My uncle Sam knows better...

We have no first year CAs, and the bid average is 78 hours this summer. Our senior CAs are third and fourth year.

Having said that, I agree with the sentiment the rates are too low.

 

[LoveGun]

VA pilots do not make a 100k a year...at least not yet. You have to be there about 5 years to hit that mark (based on month min). VA has not even been around that long, so, most CA are about 80k and FO about 40k.

Check your numbers. VA's lowest capt wage is $95/hour. Our lowest paid captain makes $100/hour. That's a year two captain. What other airline could you possibly be hired at that will pay you $100/hour your second year, give you an A320 PIC type rating in initial, and give you a schedule with 16 days off/month starting your second month on line? Add to that: happy coworkers, the chance to ride the top of the seniority list for the rest of your career, great layover hotels, brand new aircraft, great maintenance, no hat, no tie, and no Jepp revisions. The down side is this whole thing could run out of money before turning a proffit. For a former regional pilot the potential risks are exceeded by the potential rewards. Stop hating, or come up with a better system than global capitalism. Enjoy jumpseating on VA. Don't forget to bring your headsets.

 

[a320drivr]

JB bigwigs are in SFO with JP Morgan Chase.

 

[clickclickboom]

Check your numbers. VA's lowest capt wage is $95/hour. Our lowest paid captain makes $100/hour. That's a year two captain. What other airline could you possibly be hired at that will pay you $100/hour your second year, give you an A320 PIC type rating in initial, and give you a schedule with 16 days off/month starting your second month on line? Add to that: happy coworkers, the chance to ride the top of the seniority list for the rest of your career, great layover hotels, brand new aircraft, great maintenance, no hat, no tie, and no Jepp revisions. The down side is this whole thing could run out of money before turning a proffit. For a former regional pilot the potential risks are exceeded by the potential rewards. Stop hating, or come up with a better system than global capitalism. Enjoy jumpseating on VA. Don't forget to bring your headsets.

When you walk into your first regional airline simulator is there a secret gas that they inject that makes you brain dead and blind for the rest of your career? Seriously because you made 15k a year and CAN MAKE 50k does not mean that you just won the lottery.. Just blows my mind how willing some people are to whore their career like a $2 hooker without wet wipes between tricks

 

[Cheeta]

jb bigwigs are in sfo with jp morgan chase.

source?

 

[jayme]

When you walk into your first regional airline simulator is there a secret gas that they inject that makes you brain dead and blind for the rest of your career? Seriously because you made 15k a year and CAN MAKE 50k does not mean that you just won the lottery.. Just blows my mind how willing some people are to whore their career like a $2 hooker without wet wipes between tricks

You're right. He should never try to improve his life unless it's for the best job out there. Instead he should have stayed at a regional for the next 15 years and competed with the other 50,000 regional pilots for a handful of jobs at FedEx and UPS. He must be brain dead and blind.

 

[AAflyer]

If that's true then that is ridiculous. No FA in the world is worth 100K a year.

Why not, that is roughly where they should be from what they made in the 80s with the CPI adjusted for inflation. What should alarm you is not the FA salary, but how pathetically low ours has sunk.

AA

P.S. to the other sensitive pilots on this thread. Get thicker skin, who cares if you lost money, we are all losing money. You could simply change names and dollar amounts and write about any airline out there.

Just more proof in the pudding however that pilot wages do not make or break an airline.

 

[slavenaway]

VA pilots do not make a 100k a year...at least not yet.QUOTE]

Hmm. That is not correct. You might look at the payscale and the average number of hours flown per month and think that is the case but there are exceptions.

 

[Cappy]

VA pilots do not make a 100k a year...at least not yet. You have to be there about 5 years to hit that mark (based on month min). VA has not even been around that long, so, most CA are about 80k and FO about 40k.

I actually work at VA and I turned $104,000 with an average month of 85-88 hours. I still get my 16+ off and I really like it here. I do my job and I never hear from anyone at corporate. It's nice to be left alone. The acft are new and we even have wifi on them.

These are hard times and right now our biggest source of applications is from major pilots on the furlough bubble. I wish more than anything that as pilots we could stop gut-punching each other and hoping for each others demise. The industry is what it is and we're all in it together.

I wish you all the best in a tough market right now. Fly safely and be proud of the job you do every day. And, of course, everyone needs a pay raises!

My Best.