Virgin America 2Q loss $31.7 million

[NEDude]

who the heck cares? he used walmart as a metaphor for your paycheck buddy.

your enjoyable workplace and "extrodinary" service, don't get your kids through college or help pay the mortgage.

sure as hell doesn't let you live in San Fran. You don't fly to many places, SO YOU RIDE TO WORK ON ALL THE CARRIERS THAT YOU'RE UNDERCUTTING.

So are you blaming the pilots at VX for driving wages down? Or are you blaming other factors like increased competition and various online ticket vendors?

 

[Chairman]

and World, North American, USA 3000, Southern, Evergreen, ASTAR, Champion, Miami Air, Omni, Ryan Air, and many other refugees with 1000's of hours of experience in large jets....

Lets not forget Jet Blue, US AIR, AMR, and UAL

 

[NEDude]

who the heck cares? he used walmart as a metaphor for your paycheck buddy.

your enjoyable workplace and "extrodinary" service, don't get your kids through college or help pay the mortgage.

sure as hell doesn't let you live in San Fran. You don't fly to many places, SO YOU RIDE TO WORK ON ALL THE CARRIERS THAT YOU'RE UNDERCUTTING.

Hmm, upon further checking Mr "Your're Undercutting" relief tube is a captain for that industry leading airline known as Republic. From an earlier post of his:

"16 off. Home 24 nights out of the month and home for dinner 20 nights of the month. most weekends off. But live in base, senior rsv RAH.
Sorry for BB trying to take over the world. I wish all we flew were 34 seat props and had mainline to look forward to. " - January 28, 2009.

He has also taken issue with those who blame pilots groups for low wages:

"I love people who blame pilot groups and not $29 airfares for the way this industry is."- January 23, 2009.

So a Republic pilot gets on here and despite prior pronouncements against those who blame pilot groups for low wages, and blames VX pilots for undercutting.

relief tube - I invite you to come out to our crew room in SFO, while in your RAH uniform, and tell the VX pilots how we are undercutting the industry. I will make sure the several dozen ex-Midwest guys who are here will be in attendance to hear your speech....

 

[redflyer65]

My rate is currently better than Spirit, Frontier, Sun Country, American, Hawaiian, United, Allegiant, and US Airways.

Bri,

I'm glad your current rate is above those carriers, but let's take a closer look....

USAir and United - You're comparing yourself to bankrupt contracts. That's a horrible arguement.

American - They don't have any 319/320's, so I don't think you want to compare yourself to there 737 rates, if you do...they win.

Hawaiian - They pay more for their 717 than for your Airbus rates.

Sun Country - Bankruptcy contract yet again.

Spirit - Pays marginally better.

Allegiant - Here we go. Your payrates are almost exactly equal to Allegiant. Almost dollar for dollar. I'm not sure your going to win any arguements talking about equallying Allegiant pay.

You work for a BILLIONAIRE, but he pays you less than Spirit's Baldanza. Not a strong arguement.

 

[bri5150]

Redflyer,

It's not my fault they are all on bankruptcy contracts. My rates over the next few years are higher than those others in my post, so how can I be undercutting them? Some of them we are quite a bit higher (almost 25%). I never exclaimed we are the best paid pilots on the planet. I am just saying that calling us undercutters and Walmart wages is way out of line. Also, I am not sure what being owned by a billionaire has to do with anything. He might be a billionaire, but that doesn't mean he can just write blank checks to pay people what they want. Obviously he sinks enouh money into this place just keeping it going at this point (which I am grateful for). Don't make me call on the general to talk about what happened when the almighty SWA started .

 

[NEDude]

Bri,

I'm glad your current rate is above those carriers, but let's take a closer look....

USAir and United - You're comparing yourself to bankrupt contracts. That's a horrible arguement.

American - They don't have any 319/320's, so I don't think you want to compare yourself to there 737 rates, if you do...they win.

Hawaiian - They pay more for their 717 than for your Airbus rates.

Sun Country - Bankruptcy contract yet again.

Spirit - Pays marginally better.

Allegiant - Here we go. Your payrates are almost exactly equal to Allegiant. Almost dollar for dollar. I'm not sure your going to win any arguements talking about equallying Allegiant pay.

You work for a BILLIONAIRE, but he pays you less than Spirit's Baldanza. Not a strong arguement.

Interesting that a Southwest guy would look down his nose at the pay rates of any other airline. You are either truly ignorant of your own airlines past, or you subjectively justify your own airlines actions while looking down at others for doing the same thing. So tell me Mr. Southwest, are you ignorant or a hypocrite?

 

[madjack]

SWA pay rates only became industry leading after the legacy bankruptcies post 9/11...

 

[madjack]

Will mr Branson continue with VX...? Yes...IMHO...he is a genius at branding...VX is a key foothold in the US for the Virgin conglomerate.

 

[Flyer1015]

Bri,

I'm glad your current rate is above those carriers, but let's take a closer look....

USAir and United - You're comparing yourself to bankrupt contracts. That's a horrible arguement.

But those bankrupt contracts were already in place when VA started flying in 2007, meaning, that was the standard against which other airlines would peg against. In case you haven't noticed, launching an airline in this industry in 2007 wasn't the best considering the economy tanked. But the

American - They don't have any 319/320's, so I don't think you want to compare yourself to there 737 rates, if you do...they win.

Get with the program, American has already posted its A319 payrates on APC, management imposed bankruptcy rate. And yes, they are lower than VAs.

Hawaiian - They pay more for their 717 than for your Airbus rates.

Maybe he's referring to first year pay, which is higher at VA than Hawaiian.

Sun Country - Bankruptcy contract yet again.

Even then, Sun Country is way bottom barrel. And, they were already in their BK-contract when VA came about in 2007.

Spirit - Pays marginally better.

Hardly pays better. Their management is so militant, they wanted contract concessions in order to pay for continued use of KCM.

Allegiant - Here we go. Your payrates are almost exactly equal to Allegiant. Almost dollar for dollar. I'm not sure your going to win any arguements talking about equallying Allegiant pay.

No it isn't. VX pay is about 2-3 dollars higher per year for any given longevity.

You work for a BILLIONAIRE, but he pays you less than Spirit's Baldanza. Not a strong arguement.

Not true. Again, compare apples to apples, not oranges. A Feb 2010 guy at Spirit is still a FO, whereas at VX he's a Captain. Spirit's Baldanza is such a cheap azz he wants contract concessions to get KCM on board. Pay-wise, it's a wash (close enough), years 1, 3, and 4 for FOs are higher pay at VX than Spirit, and for Captains, years 1-7 are much higher at VX than Spirit.


Seriously though, this is coming from a guy at SWA? Obviously you were hired post 9/11 at SWA, but lets not forget SWA's pay history from prior to 9/11.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hmm, upon further checking Mr "Your're Undercutting" relief tube is a captain for that industry leading airline known as Republic. From an earlier post of his:

"16 off. Home 24 nights out of the month and home for dinner 20 nights of the month. most weekends off. But live in base, senior rsv RAH.
Sorry for BB trying to take over the world. I wish all we flew were 34 seat props and had mainline to look forward to. " - January 28, 2009.

He has also taken issue with those who blame pilots groups for low wages:

"I love people who blame pilot groups and not $29 airfares for the way this industry is."- January 23, 2009.

So a Republic pilot gets on here and despite prior pronouncements against those who blame pilot groups for low wages, and blames VX pilots for undercutting.

relief tube - I invite you to come out to our crew room in SFO, while in your RAH uniform, and tell the VX pilots how we are undercutting the industry. I will make sure the several dozen ex-Midwest guys who are here will be in attendance to hear your speech....

LMAO! Owned

 

[Tomct]

Just LOVE listening to all these "so called" financial experts talk about how we won't be around in a year......UM, Ya'll have been saying that for the last 5 years. STILL HERE!! Here is an idea, you just worry about your airlines and your problems and let us worry about ours. Nuff Said!

 

[Jetjockey]

Just LOVE listening to all these "so called" financial experts talk about how we won't be around in a year......UM, Ya'll have been saying that for the last 5 years. STILL HERE!! Here is an idea, you just worry about your airlines and your problems and let us worry about ours. Nuff Said!

I used to hear that rationale at Midwest Express. Don't need to be a "financial expert" to see the company is bleeding money, and is unprofitable. I do not wish ANY ill will upon any pilot or company. It's just you really have to wonder how many unprofitable quarters the company can endure.

 

[fam62c]

I used to hear that rationale at Midwest Express. Don't need to be a "financial expert" to see the company is bleeding money, and is unprofitable. I do not wish ANY ill will upon any pilot or company. It's just you really have to wonder how many unprofitable quarters the company can endure.

They can theoretically endure forever as long as there are investors willing to fund the losses and provide working capital. So far there doesn't seem to be a shortage of new capital. Whoever is bankrolling VA seems to be willing to hang in there for the long haul believing that at some point the company will be viable and they will be able to cash out their equity. It would appear to be an unproductive use of investment capital to me but obviously the folks with the money see something here or they would pull the plug and take the losses before they get to be much larger.

It's going to be another tough winter for this company. I wish the folks who work there the best of luck, maybe things will start to turn around in the spring and next year will be the turning point.

 

[ackattacker]

They can theoretically endure forever as long as there are investors willing to fund the losses and provide working capital. So far there doesn't seem to be a shortage of new capital. Whoever is bankrolling VA seems to be willing to hang in there for the long haul believing that at some point the company will be viable and they will be able to cash out their equity. It would appear to be an unproductive use of investment capital to me but obviously the folks with the money see something here or they would pull the plug and take the losses before they get to be much larger.

It's going to be another tough winter for this company. I wish the folks who work there the best of luck, maybe things will start to turn around in the spring and next year will be the turning point.

They have been telling their investors that their losses were almost entirely due to the cost of growth. When they stop growing, (actually shrinking this winter), they need to show a profit. Which, IMHO, is doubtful.

The best comparison I can draw is Kingfisher airlines in India. Started at around the same time, bankrolled and led by a charismatic billionaire. First class service and brand new everything, sexiest flight attendants. Everyone thought they were destined for greatness, and could never fail because they were bankrolled by a multi-billionaire. Never turned a profit, started to have trouble getting new financing to pay the bills for their aircraft. Parked some aircraft and then weren't able to pay their salaries. $1.5 billion in debt. Looks like their doors are now shut for good as the Indian regulators are about to yank their certificate.

 

[fam62c]

They have been telling their investors that their losses were almost entirely due to the cost of growth. When they stop growing, (actually shrinking this winter), they need to show a profit. Which, IMHO, is doubtful.

The best comparison I can draw is Kingfisher airlines in India. Started at around the same time, bankrolled and led by a charismatic billionaire. First class service and brand new everything, sexiest flight attendants. Everyone thought they were destined for greatness, and could never fail because they were bankrolled by a multi-billionaire. Never turned a profit, started to have trouble getting new financing to pay the bills for their aircraft. Parked some aircraft and then weren't able to pay their salaries. $1.5 billion in debt. Looks like their doors are now shut for good as the Indian regulators are about to yank their certificate.

One trait of successful investors is that they are willing to throw in the towel and take the loss when an investment goes south before they throw too much good money after bad. They haven't thrown in the towel yet on VA so they must see something but the talk of a "major restructuring" is never good. In this industry I can't see what they can restructure that will make a difference unless they can try to become another Allegiant and find niche routes with minimal competition. There's only so many of those routes available. The next step may be going to the employees, vendors and lenders and start the carpet dance. It's tough for small companies that are not "too big to fail."

 

[Flyer1015]

Apparently there is a new VP of Network Planning/Revenue. He's pushing for this change, and it does make financial sense. VA's first quarters have always been the worst compared to the other three quarters. By eliminating some unprofitable flying (redyes, midweek flights), VA is cutting its schedule 3% for the first quarter Jan 1 - March 30. By trimming the schedule and not paying for fuel expenses on flights where money isn't being made, the plan is to cut the overall loses that are traditionally seen in the first quarter. Note that as soon as Apr 1 comes, the flight schedule goes BACK to normal 100% operations.

 

[bri5150]

I am not concerned about a media outlet that thinks we need to restructure. We are private. There is only so much they/we know. One instance I heard may be happening is we pay through the roof for airplane leases, but we lease from our investors. Possible, sure?

We have stopped growing (scheduled break in deliveries) and we made a profit quarter 3. It also sounds like the numbers are good for quarter 4. Of course, the next comment will be about putting a year together. I'll take a couple quarters at this point.

 

[Blue Dude]

A profitable quarter or two is nice, but occasional quarters of single digit millions in profit hardly make a dent in years of double digit millions of losses. Give me 55 dollars, then 72 dollars, then 32 dollars, on and on so you're 600 in the hole, now I give you 5 back. Look, a profit! Now you're only 595 in the hole. Wake me when you break even, much less show a return.

 

[bri5150]

A profitable quarter or two is nice, but occasional quarters of single digit millions in profit hardly make a dent in years of double digit millions of losses. Give me 55 dollars, then 72 dollars, then 32 dollars, on and on so you're 600 in the hole, now I give you 5 back. Look, a profit! Now you're only 595 in the hole. Wake me when you break even, much less show a return.

As predicted. My point is that investors kept the place open when we were losing money. Why would they pull out once we start making a little? I am not saying we are financially free and clear now...trust me.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I am not concerned about a media outlet that thinks we need to restructure. We are private

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen!


etc. etc. etc.

 

[ackattacker]

I am not concerned about a media outlet that thinks we need to restructure. We are private. There is only so much they/we know. One instance I heard may be happening is we pay through the roof for airplane leases, but we lease from our investors. Possible, sure?

We have stopped growing (scheduled break in deliveries) and we made a profit quarter 3. It also sounds like the numbers are good for quarter 4. Of course, the next comment will be about putting a year together. I'll take a couple quarters at this point.

I don't know what they are telling you guys, but they only just released the 2nd quarter numbers so I question how you would know they made a 3rd quarter profit. And is that "operating" profit or "actual" profit? Are these hard numbers or management spread rumors?

As for the leases... sure they could be throwing lots of money at their investors. But if they have to borrow from investors, which they clearly are, in order to pay their investors, well, in the long run that's a description of a Ponzi scheme.

 

[XJAVRO]

I don't know what they are telling you guys, but they only just released the 2nd quarter numbers so I question how you would know they made a 3rd quarter profit. And is that "operating" profit or "actual" profit? Are these hard numbers or management spread rumors?

As for the leases... sure they could be throwing lots of money at their investors. But if they have to borrow from investors, which they clearly are, in order to pay their investors, well, in the long run that's a description of a Ponzi scheme.

What is your deal with Virgin? Did they not hire you or something?

 

[bri5150]

I don't know what they are telling you guys, but they only just released the 2nd quarter numbers so I question how you would know they made a 3rd quarter profit. And is that "operating" profit or "actual" profit? Are these hard numbers or management spread rumors?

As for the leases... sure they could be throwing lots of money at their investors. But if they have to borrow from investors, which they clearly are, in order to pay their investors, well, in the long run that's a description of a Ponzi scheme.

I will roughly summarize what the email said. It basically said we just finished the numbers for quarter 3 and they were good. We made money. Also, our projections say that quarter 4 will be even better. Then it went on to talk about the bloodbath that is 1st quarter at Virgin every year and how they are going to minimize the loss so we can put a profitable year together. That is where the talk from the media is coming from about the pull down of flying and offering leaves. It then says we need you back for quarter two when we go back to our full schedule. It was a side note from a recurrent class where the CEO said hiring pilots again in quarter 1. That would be classified as more of a rumor since I didn't hear it with my own two ears (or see with eyes).

 

[Tomct]

Jet....now you are comparing Virgin with Midwest Express?? Is that a JOKE??? Here's the difference, we have a visionairy "BILLIONAIRE" who knows what it will take and how to get it there...hence the profitable 3rd quarter with the 4th to follow.

Have a nice day!

 

[Green Banana]

Be carefull there, your {visionairy "BILLIONAIRE" who knows what it will take and how to get it there} is not without fault. He has had many ventures fail.

Virgin Cola
Virgin Vines
Virgin Vodka
Virgin Energy Shot
Virgin Ooze
Virgin Brides
Virgin Vie
Virgin Clothing
Virgin Cars
Virgin Ware
Virgin Megastore
Virgin Flowers
Virgin Pulse
Virgin Digital
Virgin Express
Virgin Charter
Virgin Student

All were started with HUGE fan fair, lost tons of money, then were sold off or shut down.

 

[Grandpa +65]

Be carefull there, your {visionairy "BILLIONAIRE" who knows what it will take and how to get it there} is not without fault. He has had many ventures fail.

Virgin Cola
Virgin Vines
Virgin Vodka
Virgin Energy Shot
Virgin Ooze
Virgin Brides
Virgin Vie
Virgin Clothing
Virgin Cars
Virgin Ware
Virgin Megastore
Virgin Flowers
Virgin Pulse
Virgin Digital
Virgin Express
Virgin Charter
Virgin Student

All were started with HUGE fan fair, lost tons of money, then were sold off or shut down.

Do not forget. Virgin Kool-aid :laugh:

 

[UM#1]

Be carefull there, your {visionairy "BILLIONAIRE" who knows what it will take and how to get it there} is not without fault. He has had many ventures fail.

Virgin Cola
Virgin Vines
Virgin Vodka
Virgin Energy Shot
Virgin Ooze
Virgin Brides
Virgin Vie
Virgin Clothing
Virgin Cars
Virgin Ware
Virgin Megastore
Virgin Flowers
Virgin Pulse
Virgin Digital
Virgin Express
Virgin Charter
Virgin Student

All were started with HUGE fan fair, lost tons of money, then were sold off or shut down.

The Virgin Group consists of over 400 companies, so with your 17 listed that's a failure rate of about 5% (rounded up even)....

 

[FlyUnder]

Jet....now you are comparing Virgin with Midwest Express?? Is that a JOKE??? Here's the difference, we have a visionairy "BILLIONAIRE" who knows what it will take and how to get it there...hence the profitable 3rd quarter with the 4th to follow.

Have a nice day!

Oh brother...

 

[HA25]

SWA pay rates only became industry leading after the legacy bankruptcies post 9/11...

the proverbial ugly girl at the end of the bar, after a long night of drinking...

 

[Splert]

I will roughly summarize what the email said. It basically said we just finished the numbers for quarter 3 and they were good. We made money. Also, our projections say that quarter 4 will be even better. Then it went on to talk about the bloodbath that is 1st quarter at Virgin every year and how they are going to minimize the loss so we can put a profitable year together. That is where the talk from the media is coming from about the pull down of flying and offering leaves. It then says we need you back for quarter two when we go back to our full schedule. It was a side note from a recurrent class where the CEO said hiring pilots again in quarter 1. That would be classified as more of a rumor since I didn't hear it with my own two ears (or see with eyes).

Made money?

Operational profit or net profit.

I suspect VA may have produced a Gross Profit but did NOT "make money" net the expense for capital equipment (interest).

We'll see.

Good luck!