Valuable ratings VS. Just more money

[PilotOnTheRise]

When it comes to getting a pilot slot through Active Duty, or Guard/Reserve, having previous flight time, and some ratings under your belt are a good thing. It only helps your chances.

My question is;
What ratings are good to get, and help your chances, vs. what ratings are simply burning more holes in your pocket, and don't make a difference.

For example, is having a private, and instrument sufficient, along with a good amount of flight time, or if one can, does continuing on, and getting a commercial, etc., etc., help even more.

I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but if you get a pilot slot, obviously you are getting trained, and will receive all of these ratings through the military, free. Is it worth spending $20K+ for all of these ratings past the instrument civilian?

 

[slacker]

Let the military pay for your ratings. In the Air Force, you will receive a PCSM score. This is some magic number that takes into account your AFOQT, BAT test and Flight hours. On your score sheet, it shows how much your PCSM score would increase as your flight time increases. I think it maxes out at 200 hours. Over that, and your flight time is all fodder for the interview and doesn't help your score anymore. Good Luck.

 

[Gunfighter]

I can't speak for the active duty boards, but I do know a little about the ANG. The pilot training program is built for a candidate with little to no expereince, with a strong aptitude and an ability to learn fast. With that in mind, they can and sometimes do hire people with little civilian experience if they show strong aptitude and academic ability.

Some selection boards place a higher value on civilian experience, generally because they had an inexperienced candidate wash out of UPT. Some boards place a higher value on being in the unit or from the local area, because they are concerned about retention.

Keep in mind they are hiring an officer who is trained as a pilot in the unit's assigned aircraft. You may be the best pilot in the world, but you also must convince the board you will be an asset to them as a commissioned officer.

 

[TankerDriver]

In my Phase II UPT class, we had 4 studs in the class with almost 4,000 combined hours of flight time. 3 of us had ratings up to CFII's, 2 of which had 1,000+ hours each, the other CFII had about 500, and the 4th guy had his PPL, instrument, commercial and had some hours teaching gliders at the Zoo. We were 1, 2, 3, and 4 ranked in the class and were all very close in mass score. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I would say a PPL and instrument rating are worth it, however, I think it's more about the quality of flight time in your logbook, ie: realworld instrument experience. I had been flying since I was 15 years old when I went to UPT. 11 years of flying. Granted, 1,300 hours of flying mostly small GA aircraft is not exactly like flying a 250 knot T-37 or T-6, but as a CFII, I felt I had stronger decision making skills and airmanship than the average stud coming in with just the Air Force funded IFT program. I was somewhat used to making quick decisions from flying 6-7 hours a day in one of the busiest training airspaces in the country. When you've been flying for a while, you can free up a few more brain cells for thinking about other things besides keeping the aircraft right side up.

I would agree that the program is designed for someone with little to no experience and going in with a lot of flight time can be frustrating because the IP's really haven't been trained to train someone like this. I frequently felt I was dancing that line between coming across confident and coming across a little too cocky. There were many things an IP would teach me in briefings that I knew already from flying in the civilian world and the key is to shut your mouth and nod, "Yes sir". The last thing you want is to come across thinking you know it all because the fact is, even with 10,000 hours of civilian time, military flying is different and you will learn lots of new things. Some of these things will make you that much better and some of them will make you ask, "Why the heck does the AF do it like this?" when the civilian way brings you to the same outcome. I don't know why. It's just different. If you've gotten far enough to get a few civilian ratings, you've proven to be trainable and with hardwork and determination, your civilian ratings will put you that much farther ahead of the rest.

Keep in mind, as you go into Phase III, things will start to level off. It will get more challenging, especially when you're flying an aircraft that's now weighs 15,000lb and goes 500kt+ (a T-1 for example). I had one up near 600 knots groundspeed one time. Things happen quick! You're starting your descent 100+ miles out now because you're up in the flight levels flying with the big boys now. You're using your weather radar and your anti-icing equipment.

In the end, I don't regret spending the money for civilian training, however, I didn't do it to help me get through UPT. I had plans to fly commercially and it was my step towards that career path.

 

[Boxav8r]

Pvt was all I had

All I had was a private ticket when I got to flight school. I finished first in my primary class. Some more instrument time would have been nice, but wasn't necessary.

All it did for me was let me settle in and pay attention to flying -vs- sightseeing in the first several hops. After that, the military teaches things SO differently than civilians that you're only likely to learn bad habits you'll have to break.

So - short answer is: If you've got your private, you'll be fine. You've shown all the aptitude it takes. Take the $20K you're thinking of putting into ratings and make a down-payment that red Porsche so you can be the babe-magnet when you report in to your first gun squadron.

To paraphrase Yogi Berra: It's 90% mental, the other half is physical.

 

[malterf15]

You don't need anything to make it through UPT. It's just the basics and they handfeed it to you.
To get hired depends on your timing more than your ratings. If they need dudes, they'll hire anybody. If they don't, the bar gets raised. Call the flying board office at AFPC at Randolph AFB in San Antonio and ask them what the current climate is. Having a PPL is a minimum nut cutter if they're tightening the pipeline. Everything else is a waste of time (unless you want to be the #1 tanker pilot in your class).

 

[Vingus]

In my Phase II UPT class, we had 4 studs in the class with almost 4,000 combined hours of flight time. 3 of us had ratings up to CFII's, 2 of which had 1,000+ hours each, the other CFII had about 500, and the 4th guy had his PPL, instrument, commercial and had some hours teaching gliders at the Zoo. We were 1, 2, 3, and 4 ranked in the class and were all very close in mass score. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I would say a PPL and instrument rating are worth it, however, I think it's more about the quality of flight time in your logbook, ie: realworld instrument experience. I had been flying since I was 15 years old when I went to UPT. 11 years of flying. Granted, 1,300 hours of flying mostly small GA aircraft is not exactly like flying a 250 knot T-37 or T-6, but as a CFII, I felt I had stronger decision making skills and airmanship than the average stud coming in with just the Air Force funded IFT program. I was somewhat used to making quick decisions from flying 6-7 hours a day in one of the busiest training airspaces in the country. When you've been flying for a while, you can free up a few more brain cells for thinking about other things besides keeping the aircraft right side up.

I would agree that the program is designed for someone with little to no experience and going in with a lot of flight time can be frustrating because the IP's really haven't been trained to train someone like this. I frequently felt I was dancing that line between coming across confident and coming across a little too cocky. There were many things an IP would teach me in briefings that I knew already from flying in the civilian world and the key is to shut your mouth and nod, "Yes sir". The last thing you want is to come across thinking you know it all because the fact is, even with 10,000 hours of civilian time, military flying is different and you will learn lots of new things. Some of these things will make you that much better and some of them will make you ask, "Why the heck does the AF do it like this?" when the civilian way brings you to the same outcome. I don't know why. It's just different. If you've gotten far enough to get a few civilian ratings, you've proven to be trainable and with hardwork and determination, your civilian ratings will put you that much farther ahead of the rest.

Keep in mind, as you go into Phase III, things will start to level off. It will get more challenging, especially when you're flying an aircraft that's now weighs 15,000lb and goes 500kt+ (a T-1 for example). I had one up near 600 knots groundspeed one time. Things happen quick! You're starting your descent 100+ miles out now because you're up in the flight levels flying with the big boys now. You're using your weather radar and your anti-icing equipment.

In the end, I don't regret spending the money for civilian training, however, I didn't do it to help me get through UPT. I had plans to fly commercially and it was my step towards that career path.

OK dude, now I know that this is the pot calling the kettle black, but if you were such a hot #hi# CFII, why did you end up getting tankers out of UPT.

Civilian experience has very little to do with how well you will do at UPT and you are a prime example of that.

I got tankers out of UPT as well. I had no real prior flight experience. Had buddies get F-16s that had no prior experience. It just depends if you have the aptitude to fly military jets.

I don't want to be rude (Simon Cowell) but give us a break!

 

[Pirate]

I put my money on him being a reservist. Maybe that's why his little CIV/MIl thing says both.
Just a guess.

 

[CobraKai]

In my Phase II UPT class, we had 4 studs in the class with almost 4,000 combined hours of flight time. 3 of us had ratings up to CFII's, 2 of which had 1,000+ hours each, the other CFII had about 500, and the 4th guy had his PPL, instrument, commercial and had some hours teaching gliders at the Zoo. We were 1, 2, 3, and 4 ranked in the class and were all very close in mass score. Coincidence? I don't think so.

While true in most cases I have seen more than a few CFII/1000+ hour pilots struggle to make it through UPT. In my own class one washed out (couldn't comprehend the whole inverted nose high recovery) and another one made it, but managed to piss off almost every IP and Student they worked with ("in the civilian world we don't do that")

... it's more about the quality of flight time in your logbook,

...and about your attitude. Military and civilian flying is different. The CFIIs that struggled were the ones that "earned" thier ratings quickly in mostly VFR level point to point flying, just to build time, or the ones that were too set in thier civilian flying is allways right ways.

Come in with a positive attitude, and the ability to accept instruction (as in if it is suggested to due something one way maybe you should try it) and you will do well.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I have my private, and am planning on getting my instrument, and stop there. I think with those two ratings, I can build some valuable flight time/ experience. I will be applying for a pilot slot with a Guard unit I recently enlisted in. Still some time away before I do that, but just trying to find out what I should do along the way.

I certainly don't want to burn money on ratings that offer no significant boost in my chances of getting a slot.

 

[TankerDriver]

OK dude, now I know that this is the pot calling the kettle black, but if you were such a hot #hi# CFII, why did you end up getting tankers out of UPT.

Civilian experience has very little to do with how well you will do at UPT and you are a prime example of that.

I got tankers out of UPT as well. I had no real prior flight experience. Had buddies get F-16s that had no prior experience. It just depends if you have the aptitude to fly military jets.

I don't want to be rude (Simon Cowell) but give us a break!

LOL... Tell me, when you're flying your A-320 around, do you ask the guy who flies DC-9's, "If you were such a hot regional pilot, why did you end up flying DC-9's?". I must say you must have a large set of brass ones and an ego to go along with them to insinuate someone was a $hitbag in UPT because they fly tankers. If you must know, I was on a height waiver through UPT that T-1 tracked me from the get go. I knew from Day 1 that I wasn't going to be able to get a T-38 even if I wanted one, which I honestly didn't. T-1's would have been my first choice whether I was #1 or #500 and I was actually #3 if you must know. I know it's hard to grasp the concept of anyone not wanting to be a fighter pilot. I don't know. There was something about studying tactics in a vault for 6 hours to go out and fly for 1.2 only to come back and debrief for another 6 hours that turned me off. Other than being able to takeoff and climb straight up while accelerating, I had no desire to be a fighter pilot. And guess what, most of the fighter pilots flying over Iraq right now are flying circles in the sky just like we are. There's not much bomb dropping going on anymore.

Other than C-21's, tankers were my second choice out of T-1's. Why? I didn't want to be gone every other week flying strat airlift. Sorry, I was lifestyle over airframe. I know when I'm going to deploy and when I'm going to be home. I'm not set to deploy for the next 5 months. But I know, just like the fighter track stereotype, if you don't get C-17's out of T-1's, you're a $hitbag too, right?

Pirate, I hope it wasn't too much $$$ because I'm active duty.

Now that this thread has turned into a pissing match, back to our regularly scheduled program! I knew quite a few guys with lots of civilian flight time in UPT. I never heard of any of them washing out. Not to say it's not possible, but all the ones I knew did very well. Most of them were out of OTS, Guard, Reserves who had been in the "real world" for quite some time vs ROTC or the AFA and because they had been serious about flying for quite some time vs the Zoo guy who breezed through an "I'll just get by" major with a 2.5 GPA and got his flight slot because he wanted to be that cool fighter pilot with the Z06 Corvette. Oops, that's me stereotyping now.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

On a height waiver? For being too short, or tall? I'm 6'5". Will I fit into the T-38's? haha.

 

[dtfl]

My $.02

First of all, Slacker is dangerous.......

Second. We had a CFII with 3000 hours that was a corp pilot for Catepillar and he was an OUTSTANDING pilot...but...other classes had CFIs that washed out. Attitude I guess.

I had a buddy in UPT that got by in college with a 2.5 or so. In a Frat, drank a lot and never studied. Got to UPT and was a very good pilot. Got 12 or so in tweets because our Flt CC was a tea-totaller. Was ranked in the top 3 in 38s. In my drop we had banked fighters and "stacked" fighters meaning - you flew a 38 once a week and waited...and waited...he got an MC130E. He took it because it was AFSOC and he, myself and some buds could hang at HRT.
AFter becoming an OGV guy he got the crossflow approved. He is at Monterey now at Naval Postgrad school. His last assignment? IP at Luke in Vipers. So...even book smart does not equal fly smart

 

[TankerDriver]

Too short. 6'5" huh? I think that's actually close. I don't remember what the upper height limit is. I never really had to worry about it.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

The upper limit is 6'5". The unit I am in flies F-15's. Someone told me one of the pilots is 6'6", so I assume I should be fine, since it is Guard. I fit into C-150s fine, so hopefully I fit into a T-38.

For active duty, do they determine airplane based off of height at all? Does it truly have any factor, as long as you are within limits?

 

[Gorilla]

Remember Chad Hennings, USAFA grad and Dallas Cowboys Defensive line guy? One huge dude. Somehow he managed to get into T-38's and went on to the A-10. I'm not sure how he did it legally.

I'm 6'3", still legal, but when I did my AT-38 IP stint at HMN, my helmet really scraped the back seat canopy, and the whole fit was pretty marginal for safe ejection.

 

[TankerDriver]

The upper limit is 6'5". The unit I am in flies F-15's. Someone told me one of the pilots is 6'6", so I assume I should be fine, since it is Guard. I fit into C-150s fine, so hopefully I fit into a T-38.

For active duty, do they determine airplane based off of height at all? Does it truly have any factor, as long as you are within limits?

Anything is possible. I'm sure the chances of getting a waiver and such is much easier being in the guard because there's less of a chain of leadership to have to deal with and I'm sure units are more prone to fighting for their people compared to Joe Blow active duty.

There is a range, 64-77 inches standing and I think the sitting height range is 32-44". If you fall outside any of those ranges, you're pretty much disqualified from UPT and have to go through a painful waiver process, which used to go up to the Chief of Staff, but I believe the AETC commander can now sign height waivers. When you fall outside any of those limits, they take additional measurements (arm reach, etc...) and evaluate them to come up with what planes you can fly (if you press for the waiver). The waiver process when I went through was a bunch of butt pain, just like anything else in the military. The people down at Brooks were pretty much worthless and wouldn't lift a finger, although they did try to make me reclassify and give me a new job (that was nice of them ). It wound up taking some "political persuation" and 6 months to get a waiver. Supposedly the T-38's archaic ejection seat is very violent on the body, especially if you're outside the height and weight parameters and that's why they T-1 track people outside these parameters.

 

[Pirate]

Oh well, I thought it was a good guess.

Any way I hate the if you didn't fly 38s you must suck attitude.

I could actual care less if you fly an F-whatever or a B-whocares.
The way I see it is a guy has one of two things going for him, either he has a big johnson or he can fight; everyone else should keep their mouth shut.

 

[TankerDriver]

Oh well, I thought it was a good guess.

Any way I hate the if you didn't fly 38s you must suck attitude.

I could actual care less if you fly an F-whatever or a B-whocares.
The way I see it is a guy has one of two things going for him, either he has a big johnson or he can fight; everyone else should keep their mouth shut.

:laugh: Well, I will agree that for the most part, studs that get tankers had them at the end of their list and got them because they were on the poop end of the stick in class ranking. Well, at least the KC-135 guys. KC-10 slots are rare and are considered "Gucci" and usually most people put them up at the top of the list , so the top studs get them. I wanted the 135 over the 10 because we actually fly our aircraft by hand a lot more than the 10 guys and I was lucky enough to have a few 135 IP's in my T-1 flight to tell me this. We do transition, ie: overhead patterns, tactical arrivals and departures, VFR closed patterns, etc... I don't believe the 10 guys do that stuff. UPT is a rumor mill. UPT studs are near sighted and only think about a great first assignment. People love labeling different flying communities and they pick airframes by popularity rather than looking down the road a few years and what their options will be. C-17s are the newest technology we have in AMC, they've got a lot of pretty computer screens and a control stick like a fighter, but after a few years, just like anything else, you get bored with it and the quality of life catches up to you. Besides, 135 guard units are a dime a dozen which opens up many options during these times of "Force Shaping" and hopefully that's where I'll be by the summer. :beer:

We had a guy in my primary class who was ranked 7th out of 13 and he still got fighters because he was lucky enough to have 3 guys ahead of him who wanted T-1's and T-44's. The best of the best, right... sometimes it comes down to who wants what and how lucky you are.

 

[Mooseflyer]

OK dude, now I know that this is the pot calling the kettle black, but if you were such a hot #hi# CFII, why did you end up getting tankers out of UPT.

What a c0cksucker...... I rarely post on Flightinfo, but it always p!sses me off when some moron thinks that if you didn't take a fighter out of UPT you're a sh!tbag. How about bases of assignment? Travel opportunity? Community mentality? Heavy jet time? No deployments? FWIW, the #1 guy in my class took a -135 (with his guard unit), and the F-16 went about halfway down. While I was happy for the opportunity to fly the -38 (in the days before SUPT came to CBM), I couldn't imagine flying around the flagpole for the rest of my days.

Edit:
No offense Vingus, I just noticed YOU were/are a -135 guy. Regardless, the train of thought has always gotten under my skin......

 

[Pistlpetet]

When it comes to getting a pilot slot through Active Duty, or Guard/Reserve, having previous flight time, and some ratings under your belt are a good thing. It only helps your chances.

My question is;
What ratings are good to get, and help your chances, vs. what ratings are simply burning more holes in your pocket, and don't make a difference.

For example, is having a private, and instrument sufficient, along with a good amount of flight time, or if one can, does continuing on, and getting a commercial, etc., etc., help even more.

I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but if you get a pilot slot, obviously you are getting trained, and will receive all of these ratings through the military, free. Is it worth spending $20K+ for all of these ratings past the instrument civilian?

Back on the topic....Since you have not gotten selected for a pilot program yet, you always have to have a back up plan, and not put all your eggs in one basket. Life can always hand you a $hit sandwich.

Getting your private and Instrument would not only help your packet, but it would also show people you like aviation enough to put your money and time into getting your ratings. Also, having flown instruments before can only make your time in Flight School a little easier, since you will have that base of knowledge.

Until you have been selected, you don't have the option to Uncle Sam pay for your ratings. Yes, there are plenty of lucky guys who have never had to pay a dime for their flight time or licenses. Personally I like to hire guys who I know have put their own money and effort into their careers, not just the ones that only get the ratings that the Military Gave them.