V1 Rotate

[Pilot12345]

Just wondering what the correct procedure is when you rotate at V1....

Ok, I have heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should come off the power levers and onto the yoke which means "were committed now".

I have also heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should NEVER come off the power levers except to briefly put the gear and flaps up at least until 1,000 AGL.

The reason I have been told to keep your hands ON the power levers is because of possible power lever friction lock problems. For example, A power lever could slip back making you think you had an engine failure. I have heard of power levers slipping back even with the friction lock all the way locked. Is this true?

Is it just a personal preference to keep your hands on or off the power levers at V1?

I'd appreciate any opinions!
Thank's

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Ok, I have heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should come off the power levers and onto the yoke which means "were committed now".

I have also heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should NEVER come off the power levers except to briefly put the gear and flaps up at least until 1,000 AGL.

My company policy is for the hand to come off of the thrust levers at V1, and place it on the yoke. Rotation is executed with both hands on the yoke.

Since the PNF brings gear and flaps up, the PF keeps both hands on the yoke for a while, usually until he turns the autopilot on, or if he needs to bring the thrust back, for example, leveling off below 10K'.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Just wondering what the correct procedure is when you rotate at V1....

Ok, I have heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should come off the power levers and onto the yoke which means "were committed now".

I have also heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should NEVER come off the power levers except to briefly put the gear and flaps up at least until 1,000 AGL.

The reason I have been told to keep your hands ON the power levers is because of possible power lever friction lock problems. For example, A power lever could slip back making you think you had an engine failure. I have heard of power levers slipping back even with the friction lock all the way locked. Is this true?

Is it just a personal preference to keep your hands on or off the power levers at V1?

I'd appreciate any opinions!
Thank's

I have NEVER seen a 121 carrier that left hands on the throttles past V1. I have worked for 3 and jumpseated on most of the others......you will not see anybody keep hands on the levers past V1.

In the corporate world you see just about every procedure that you can imagine.......but none of the training centers train that way. FS, simcom,simuflite ect. all use the 121 style procedures.

The hands on approach you speak of is probably only on piston equipment.

 

[2000flyer]

Just wondering what the correct procedure is when you rotate at V1....

Ok, I have heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should come off the power levers and onto the yoke which means "were committed now".

I have also heard that when you rotate at V1 your right hand should NEVER come off the power levers except to briefly put the gear and flaps up at least until 1,000 AGL.

The reason I have been told to keep your hands ON the power levers is because of possible power lever friction lock problems. For example, A power lever could slip back making you think you had an engine failure. I have heard of power levers slipping back even with the friction lock all the way locked. Is this true?

Is it just a personal preference to keep your hands on or off the power levers at V1?

I'd appreciate any opinions!
Thank's

Pilot12345, every company and every aircraft I've flown, you ALWAYS take your right hand off the throttle (left if you're flying from the right seat) at V1 as you're committed to take off.

Friction lock, at least I've never heard of this, never comes into play during take off (unless someone sets power, tightens frictions and resets hand to throttle ???). On the Falcon 2000/2000EX, there is no throttle friction adjustment.

Another consideration: aircraft like the Citation 500-560 (not sure of the others) have a throttle interconnect to the engine where if a T/R should deploy, it would pull the throttle to idle. If you had both hands on the throttle when this happens, guess what? You'll now have two engines at idle. I've been flying Citations for over 15 years and it happened to me for the first time last October. Just after flap retraction I was adjusting to climb power when it happened. Thank heavens it was in the simulator!

2000Flyer

 

[Peanut gallery]

Your mixing a few concepts together

There are three speeds for takeoff that are common to most jets.

V1, Vr, and V2.

V1 is the go/ no go speed. Usually an engine failure below V1 means that you must abort so you keep your hands on the thrust levers until reaching V1. After V1 you will continue the takeoff so you take your hands off the thrust levers to reinforce that the decision has been made.

Vr is the rotation speed not V1 as you mentioned. While some aircraft do have V1's and Vr's very close some do not.

V2 is the speed at which you wish to climb initially following an engine failure with slight variations per a/c manufacture.

I could go into the whole part 25 climb and performance definitions but you probably do not want to hear all that.

 

[Immelman]

I am not a jet driver but I do have a related question: Aren't most jet takeoffs at less than max power? If that is the case, and your performance/climb profile single engine is not going to be the greatest, why not keep your hands there to apply full power in the event that you lose one?

Just curious...

 

[Occam's Razor]

I am not a jet driver but I do have a related question: Aren't most jet takeoffs at less than max power? If that is the case, and your performance/climb profile single engine is not going to be the greatest, why not keep your hands there to apply full power in the event that you lose one?

Just curious...

No jet takeoffs are a max "power". Power is for props. Jets use thrust.

And yes, most takeoffs are done at "reduced", "flex", or "alternate" thrust settings. If the runway can be balanced and the aircraft meet second-segment climb requirements, using reduced thrust reduces wear on the engines.

The reduced thrust is ALWAYS enough to get the aircraft to it's engine-out clean-up altitude, and meet all the restrictions prior to that.

It is an option to add more thrust if one of the engines swallows a grenade, but the thrust setting used will get the job done...otherwise you wouldn't have used it.

The only time I popped a motor on takeoff in a jet, I did add thrust after the gear was up, but only because I was IMC, in the mountains, and had sucked 6-inches of seat cushion up my butt. The thrust levers were right there where I had left them...and it was easy to push them both (no guessing which one!) up slightly to full thrust.

 

[floatflyer99]

Single-pilot vs. two-crew

If you're single pilot, I can see the benefit to keeping your hands on the power levers as much as possible. You've got a lot to do and the last thing you need is the power levers sliding back. Might be a good idea to double-check the friction locks before take-off You should be able to rotate with one hand if the airplane is certified for single pilot ops. Nothing wrong with using both though to get a nice positive rotation, but I would probably put my right hand back on the power levers soon after.

Most airplanes that use V1, Vr, etc. are two-crew. At our complany the PNF would have his hands "backing up" the power levers after the PF calls "set power". At this point the PNF should monitor the power levers very closely while he monitors the engine instruments, etc. If any limits are exceeded or the power levers start to slide back, it should be the PNF that notices first and adjusts the power levers accordingly. This is between "set power" and the after take-off checks. After that it would likely be the PF that would adjust the power levers.

Hope that helps.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I am not a jet driver but I do have a related question: Aren't most jet takeoffs at less than max power? If that is the case, and your performance/climb profile single engine is not going to be the greatest, why not keep your hands there to apply full power in the event that you lose one?

Just curious...

Prior to V1 everybody is in the stop mode if something happens, If your hands are on the throttle and you are still on the ground when a motor pops the automatic reaction is to try to stop, problem is after v1 you no longer have enough runway left to stop.

In a ruduced thrust condition you still have the power to go, part of the reduced thrust calculations, most companies only increase power after the intial engine failure call and a "max power" call....this removes the chance of anybody getting excited and pulling the power instead of adding it.

Try it in a sim sometime, it is amazing how many pilots will try to stop after the point of no return if they leave their hands on the levers....it is a conditioned reaction that is very very hard to overcome.

Edit: typing too fast, correct pee poor grammer.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I am not a jet driver but I do have a related question: Aren't most jet takeoffs at less than max power? If that is the case, and your performance/climb profile single engine is not going to be the greatest, why not keep your hands there to apply full power in the event that you lose one?

Just curious...

Cant speak for every jet operation out there, but ours is called standard power takeoffs. We have takeoff data for every runway that we can use (almost every runway anyway). The way it works is you find the temp for that day and read across to the max weight you can takeoff with. That max weight is either runway limited (length) climb limited (performance for clearing obstacles) or structural (max takeoff weight). The nice thing with our data is that is unlimited meaing it will show max takeoff weights over max structural letting you know you have excess performance.

Now what we do for "standard" power takeoffs is we find our actual weight on the table, or as close as we can get, and read the temp. Basically using the chart backwards. We then take that temp (called assumed temp) and enter our performance charts with the assumed temp and actual takeoff weight. This gives us higer V1 VR V2, etc because we are assuming a hotter temp than actual. This works because not only does the airplane weigh less than the weight limit for that runway at that actual temp we are also using a power setting that is based on a higher temp than there really is. So we do takeoff with reduced power but the power is only reduced to the point that we get max performance for our actual weight (with fudge factors for climb gradients etc) instead of using a power setting (max power) for the max runway weight at that actual temp.

In short, if my runway limit weight is 330000# at 20 deg C but I only weigh 280000# why do I need to work the engines that much harder? I go to the chart and find the temp that has near 280000# limit weight and use that temp and 280000# in the speeds and N1 charts.

 

[User546]

Excellent posts here. Nothing more left to be said. As one poster noted, every company seems to have their own profiles, but our profile seems to be the one that is used most commonly.

Cleared for Takeoff: - PF pushes throttles up to pre-determined N1, PNF tweaks exact setting if needed. PNF announces: "Takeoff Power Set"

"Airspeeds Alive" - Once the airspeed numbers start showing.

"80 Knots" - PNF cross checks all engine instruments, checks annunciators.

"V1" - PF removes hand from power levers, Place on yoke. (Committed)

"Rotate" - Using both hands, pull back on yoke to set takeoff attitude.

"V2" - Nothing

- After Positive Rate: PNF then raises Landing Gear, engages Yaw Damp, and puts Flaps up at PF's command.

- Passing thru 1,000 feet: PNF then places his hands on the power levers to set the pre-determined Max Climb Thrust.

- After Max Climb Thrust is Set: PNF performs Climb Checklist.

 

[filejw]

Razor,Some company's do use "Power" instead of "Thrust".

 

[XTW]

At my former Pt. 121 carrier, we did not take our hands off the throttles at V1. We kept a hand at the throttles and guarded them from rolling back unintentionally, and also, in the event of a windshear encounter, your hand was there to push the power to max available. When first checking out as a new 727 FO, my line instructor beat it into me to always have a hand on the throttles at the lower altitudes. There really is no reason to have both hands on the yoke when you are the PF.


Fast forward 15 years. Now flying the Citation product. It took a long time to get into the habit of removing the hands at V1 to guard against "throttle snatch". Old habits are hard to break, especially when there was a good reason for them at the time.


X

 

[satpak77]

FlightSafety/Simuflite/Industry teaches V1, both hands on wheel and you "drive"

I have a personal habit also when I hear "cleared for takeoff" is check "engine gages (oil PSI and TEMP) --> Green Arcs" in addition to the standard takeoff roll call-outs

gear up at POS rate. Capt should be able to reach and physically feel the handle and put it up without taking eyes off his panel.

keep driving

if single pilot just "DRIVE" till 1000+ AGL then start pushing buttons and engaging stuff, make sure everything is stable first and away from ground

In the B-350 single pilot type ride, if you rotate and at 100 feet AGL look down for the Yaw Damp button, you are asking for a lecture by the check airman at the very minimum. Do that in solid IMC and you can get into trouble that close to the ground.

also, (not directly related to this thread but...) while the B-350 is FAA Single Pilot airplane, if you are asked to fly one single pilot with an INOP Autopilot, you are related to Chuck Yeager or much sharper than me (possible).....

I DO NOT recommend flying the 350 single pilot with no AP

later

 

[Swede]

One simple option which I like is at V1-5 knots or so, transition the hand from the top of the knobs and position it behind and below the levers in a distinct "push it up" position. Some guys literally rest their palms flat on the quadrant behind the levers and keep their fingertips at the bases. This makes an inadvertant post-V1 throttle snatchback very unlikely if not impossible, yet ensures the throttles will not retard uncommanded. The chances of a well-maintained authothrottle system sliding back once engaged are pretty much nil these days.

More food for thought - It is entirely possible to abort past V1 IF, for example, you are a lightweight domestic flight launching off a 13,000'+ JFK/ATL/DFW behemoth runway. Not saying it's smart, but sometimes new guys will insist that "It is IMPOSSIBLE to stop past V1." That statement is true only on a balanced field.

 

[GravityHater]

Nothing more left to be said.

?????????????

 

[amaineiac]

I have NEVER seen a 121 carrier that left hands on the throttles past V1. I have worked for 3 and jumpseated on most of the others......you will not see anybody keep hands on the levers past V1.

Every time I've jumpseated on an AA MD-80, the captain always kept his hands on the thrust levers past V1. I've always meant to ask when we reach 10K, but keep forgetting.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Every time I've jumpseated on an AA MD-80, the captain always kept his hands on the thrust levers past V1. I've always meant to ask when we reach 10K, but keep forgetting.

Yeah, well that crowd used to set the altimeters to zero out at field level too!!!

Thats what I hate about Russia....QFE and Meters!!! I bet the AA guys love it over there!!


(For the AA guy getting all fluffed up right now.....simmer down, it is in good fun. )

 

[Godvek]

Pre-V1 is not the only factor in an abort decision. There are high-speed and low-speed aborts. Usually 121 carriers consider anything above 80 or 100 KTS a high speed abort and do not recommend aborting after this speed unless the captain feels flight is not possible. In my company the captain makes the decision to abort. After 80 or 100 KTS (lower than V1) it is considered safer to continue on and have the full length of the runway to stop, even though performance figures allow it. Keep in mind your aircraft is still producing thrust and accelerating even with an engine failure and a high speed abort is more likely to cause tire blow-outs, brake overheating, etc.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Razor,Some company's do use "Power" instead of "Thrust".

They do?

At least one major airline used to have a shrink as their VP of Flight Operations, too.

As long as we, the operators, understand that "power" is for props, and jets have "thrust", I suppose we can indulge them.

What does your airline use?