V.America- u know your pay rates are worse than Spirits, right?

[27 driver]

What I can't understand is why people think ALPA screwed them. Its your own members that screw you. Your own members negotiate for you. ALPA provides resources, your local makes the decisions. ALPA national can't force any pilot group to sign anything.

If Jet Blue and VA can operate and continue to get better QOL and pay without giving 2% of their pay then more power to them.

 

[waveflyer]

Startups and new hires are the only place where the market truly drives wages- you have to look at how VA (or any other startup) is attracting talent at those wages-
it's bc of the proliferation of regionals-

Half-

Half of all united domestic departures are flown by express pilots that have NO seniority rights and whose contracts are constantly whipsawed by their legacy partner- this disenfranchisement is what is hurting the industry- and is 100% the responsibility of legacy pilots to correct

 

[NEDude]

all those here arguing that "yeah, they're pitiful but will get better" are missing the point. I have no doubt they will work hard to try to do that.

It's that this industry is now to a point where investors with deep pockets can start multiple airlines with sad rates, and pilots will go there. Those low rates will subsidize more planes and more routes (like Airtrain did with 20% growth for years) and those small players will become big players. Along the way those airlines with all their added competition and low fares will undoubtedly continue to kill this place and lead to more regionals flying routes they shouldn't and mainline guys getting furloughed.

If we wouldn't accept those pithy wages in the first place, those small startups wouldn't become national players.

Pax benefit from way to many airlines out there, but not a single pilot every has.

But it is acceptable to accept significantly worse wages to replace a mainline job with an RJ?

The reason there are pilots on the street to accept the pay is because ALPA gave away their mainline jobs.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

whose contracts are constantly whipsawed by their legacy partner- this disenfranchisement is what is hurting the industry- and is 100% the responsibility of legacy pilots to correct

C'mon Wave....

There you go again. You got a hard on for the Legacy pilots like me who realized that a commuter is a stepping stone not a career. The RJ's were created to counter the LUV effect. Low wages (Then), crappy work rules (Then), no retirement (Then and now), commuter schedule (then). THe RJ's were put up so that Major's could deploy connecting assets. So Legacy guys should have busted a nut to make sure the RJ guys get paid like me?? Seriously??

I do agree we created our own problem by even allowing ONE RJ out of the barn, but laying the whole RJ problem at our feet means you aren't staring into the rear-view mirror at SWA.

As for your UAL deal....those pilots have had a gun to their head since September 12, 2001. They have been fighting an uphill battle and have more battle scars than most could have possibly suffered. It's not the pilot's group fault that management went into BK court with an axe or that Jorge Arbusto said no striking on my watch or no ATSB money until labor gets a beat down.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

C'mon Wave....

There you go again. You got a hard on for the Legacy pilots like me who realized that a commuter is a stepping stone not a career. The RJ's were created to counter the LUV effect. Low wages (Then), crappy work rules (Then), no retirement (Then and now), commuter schedule (then). THe RJ's were put up so that Major's could deploy connecting assets. So Legacy guys should have busted a nut to make sure the RJ guys get paid like me?? Seriously??

I do agree we created our own problem by even allowing ONE RJ out of the barn, but laying the whole RJ problem at our feet means you aren't staring into the rear-view mirror at SWA.

As for your UAL deal....those pilots have had a gun to their head since September 12, 2001. They have been fighting an uphill battle and have more battle scars than most could have possibly suffered. It's not the pilot's group fault that management went into BK court with an axe or that Jorge Arbusto said no striking on my watch or no ATSB money until labor gets a beat down.

Bill:
Arguing with doosh bags like waveflyer will get you nowhere. He blames the industry pitfalls on ALPA legacy pilots, but fails to look in the mirror at his own group.
ALPA pilots have had pressure on them since 9/11 to get down to the lousy pay/benefits that southwest offers. Southwest also makes their employees pay for their job, which is one thing at least for now, that most legacy's seem to be looking the other way at.
His pilot group also started, and supported age 65. Yet he seems to be more focused on blaming ALPA/legacy pilots for the industry problems, when in fact, if it weren't for ********************ty operators like southwest we wouldn't have this low pay precedence set by crappy low cost carriers.
The industry low pay and benefits can be attributed to none other than the folks at southwest.

 

[waveflyer]

No- I don't blame United pilots for bush's NMB or his ATSB- I blame the ones who voted for him and his capitalist rhetoric even when he clearly used his govt position to try and pick winners-
UAL is one example- what's the percentage of DAL departures done by those not on your seniority list.

Well- at least you admit it.

The problem is that RJs have grown so big now you can't call that a stepping stone. Why not outsource everything smaller than a 757? Where does it stop.

You're equating capitalism and downward pressure from a competitor bs the complete disenfranchisement of HALF of ALPA pilots...

Wow.

I put it on ALPA pilots bc they are the ones who had to sign off on it- and they are the only pilots who have the power to kick the camel out of the tent.

Do you not see how little power the express pilot has in the situation?

Do you understand how keeping the rj drivers off your seniority list puts MORE downward pressure on your wages?

I don't have a hard on - I have a desire to help you UNDERSTAND what you are doing to yourself- and how much worse the effect is for everyone else.

It doesn't seem like you get it.

And it doesn't seem like you have much integrity since all you offer is selfish excuses-
you stayed flying while Delta furloughed your junior guys- and outsourced their jobs. You SAY it was a mistake to let one jet off the property- but with no BK gun to your head in 2006- your group voted to allow 90 seaters.
You have no right to lecture me- I chose to work for the company with the highest paid domestic pilots in the country- the one who never in it's history has outsourced flying-
if WN does go that route- I'll have choices to make- I hope I can operate with more integrity than you guys have-

unions don't work w/o unity and there can be none as long as so many seniority lists fly for the same company.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

No- I don't blame United pilots for bush's NMB or his ATSB- I blame the ones who voted for him and his capitalist rhetoric even when he clearly used his govt position to try and pick winners-
UAL is one example- what's the percentage of DAL departures done by those not on your seniority list.

Well- at least you admit it.

The problem is that RJs have grown so big now you can't call that a stepping stone. Why not outsource everything smaller than a 757? Where does it stop.

You're equating capitalism and downward pressure from a competitor bs the complete disenfranchisement of HALF of ALPA pilots...

Wow.

I put it on ALPA pilots bc they are the ones who had to sign off on it- and they are the only pilots who have the power to kick the camel out of the tent.

Do you not see how little power the express pilot has in the situation?

Do you understand how keeping the rj drivers off your seniority list puts MORE downward pressure on your wages?

I don't have a hard on - I have a desire to help you UNDERSTAND what you are doing to yourself- and how much worse the effect is for everyone else.

It doesn't seem like you get it.

And it doesn't seem like you have much integrity since all you offer is selfish excuses-
you stayed flying while Delta furloughed your junior guys- and outsourced their jobs. You SAY it was a mistake to let one jet off the property- but with no BK gun to your head in 2006- your group voted to allow 90 seaters.
You have no right to lecture me- I chose to work for the company with the highest paid domestic pilots in the country- the one who never in it's history has outsourced flying-
if WN does go that route- I'll have choices to make- I hope I can operate with more integrity than you guys have-

unions don't work w/o unity and there can be none as long as so many seniority lists fly for the same company.

Ok Wave....not lecturing, just talking.....

While SWA was poking around Texas and growing, legacies WERE the highest paid with the best rules, then airlines like yours started branding themselves low-cost, because of labor and work rules. Should legacy carriers have said "Hey, let's just agree to lower our wages and drop our work rules just so we can compete!"????

Would you drop your highest paid perch to compete with Republic or VA?? They are the same hybrid as you....domestic point to point....I'm just saying....they may be today's low-cost Darling just like you guys were 15 years ago.....

You can bet that since SWA's model has changed going to all of the airports you once avoided (LGA, BOS, IAD) your costs will climb. being the highest paid puts a target on your chest. Gary is making clear his true master is Wall Street and not the employee and now "costs" are making it into his vocabulary. I wouldn't blame you if he puts on his nasty and tries to outsource or cut your wages....but you WILL walk in the shoes all legacy carriers faced when somebody else does your job cheaper, that I guarantee.

Please do tell how I can force all RJ's back into mainline jobs without raising costs?? I'm all ears......

You got up off your tail, filled out an app, got the type and got the job (Cue Scope at anytime here ) at the airline who hasn't outsourced, Super!!! I'm hoping you and your pseudo-union CAPA (Effing joke) will step up and take the lead since ALPA in your eyes has failed. The rest of us are hoping you will be successful.

BTW, didn't vote for Bush, didn't vote for 90 seaters, Can't find where ALPA's responsible for degrading the profession.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Here are the FACTS:
Current rates as of June 1, 2010:
Capt (thru highest published) $100-105-110-115-120-125-127-129-131-133

And you're proud of that? Your highest paid Capt. is currently making $110 and won't top out for ANOTHER 7 YEARS.

Flying A320s for regional pay rates. You don't think that exerts DOWNWARD pressure on all our wages? If you want to see why this profession is going down the toilet, Virgins, look in the mirror.

uke:

 

[waveflyer]

Bill-
have you seen any SWA guys on here worried about VA's rates-
if they can compete - let them try.

You were the one who said RJ's were the response to low wages of Swa and inability to compete with them.

Well- we've been competing w/ VA- and doing well. We've been competing with legacies who've been making less for almost a decade and still doing well.

It's telling that your response to your inability to compete w/ LCCs is to sell out other younger pilots...

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Wave,

You competed by getting great fuel hedges, let's be honest. Not by your union or your hard work or your scope.....

And competition amongst only 69 cities is no measuring stick between our airlines.