USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[Cobraair75drvr]

Holy ********************! I actually somewhat agree with something JM says. Having flown both domestic/intl fo/now domestic capt I would rather have a system like the euros. Doesn't UPS? Intl. beats you up, hard enough as a youngster. The hard part is going to be able to get pay rates that accuratly take into account the revenue generating ability of your specific airline. Ie if your airline has 100 widebodies which require 1000 capts. then the top 1000 capts get paid that rate based on their seniority number regardless of whether they fly the whale or the 320. Basically a LOS pay scale adjusted for fleet make up.

...now we're getting somewhere.....I hate to say it, but I agree.....

IMO, the European airline system is better....They also pay the same across all aircraft.....It is actually a much better system...the young folks get to do the international stuff and the older people get to stay in the same time zone.....Win-win.....

Now as to the "how"...The only way to convince the top is if they feel their "boat" will be threatened if we don't change.....I don't think anything else will work.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The big hurdle is getting the senior guys to give up thier ivory tower position. What do they get in return..... and do we have the leadership to make it so and the membership support...............

 

[PCL_128]

Disagree completely with you, Rez. Seniority has its privileges, as it should. I have no desire to work every other Christmas when I'm senior. Payscales have steep progressions by design, because you'll spend more time at 12-year pay than you will at 1-year pay. Sorry, I like the current system.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Payscales have steep progressions by design, because you'll spend more time at 12-year pay than you will at 1-year pay. Sorry, I like the current system.

....in this environment maybe not.....Heck you've already spent 3 years at low 1 year payrates....including paying the company for one of those first years....There is a fairly good chance you won't see year 12 pay at Air Tran in this environement.....

Combine this with the time value of money and it would be better to put more money in the beginning years....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Disagree completely with you, Rez. Seniority has its privileges, as it should. I have no desire to work every other Christmas when I'm senior. Payscales have steep progressions by design, because you'll spend more time at 12-year pay than you will at 1-year pay. Sorry, I like the current system.

Understood...

but the current dispairity between the Haves and Have Nots creates a multi faceted division of groups.

It erodes our effectiveness.

Basically what you are saying is the seniority priviledges is equivilent to Having your Cake and Eating it too...

IOW.. not only does the high senior pilot enjoy the job protections of having a majority of the list below him/her... s/he also enjoys the max days off, vacation, pay, etc... Classic 'rich gets richer'...

Isn't being senior and knowing hundreds to thousands will lose thier jobs first....enough?

 

[PCL_128]

Your answer is basically an "everybody is equally miserable" solution. I find that far less appealing than the current system. At least there's a light at the end of the tunnel with the current system. Under your proposal, there is no light. It's all misery for the rest of your career, because you'll never get those 20 day off lines. You'll never be able to count on spending all of your holidays with your family. You'll never get those 4 weeks of vacation. Etc... Sorry, but I don't view that as an improvement.

 

[waveflyer]

a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow--
how many senior pilots are only flying international routes for financial reasons but would rather not?
Widebody pay disparity creates a carrot that we all sacrifice for in the meantime-- that's the wrong ambition-- if the bottom job is a good one- by definition the top will be as well... it's not unionism if the bottom pilot's life sucks...
Right now- a good percentage of pilots in this country are struggling- and there is no sign that management feels this is enough...

 

[PCL_128]

I agree that pay disparity between airframes is a bad idea, and I like the single pay scale system that UPS has, but it's still heavily weighted in the later years, which is something I agree with. That's not to say that a small portion of pay shouldn't be shifted to the first few years to bring them up to more livable wages, but a severe flattening of the pay gradient would be a mistake.

 

[waveflyer]

why do you believe in the "carrot"? is a dollar today worth more than a dollar tomorrow? Sacrificing pay now for pay later is one of the biggest mistakes we make in our careers.

we have to make it easier to change companies so that management can't hold the concession gun to our heads and say they will fold if we don't sign.

The easiest beginning to the solution is upping 1st year pay by a lot-- i've proposed averaging the first 5 years of FO pay--- But if pilots knew that 1st year pay was a livable wage- collectively we wouldn't have rolled over so often this decade...

 

[PCL_128]

You'll spend 20 years at the 12 year rate, but one year at the 2-year rate. Weighting payrates towards the lower years yields less career earnings unless you're above average age at date of hire.