USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[JetMonkey]

You have legitimate gripes about your representation and won't take that away from you. My point is that ALPA is the convenient scapegoat. I submit that no other union would've or could've achieved anything substantially better. The economy, the government, bankruptcy court, and the airline's financials are what caused the terrible concessions of the last seven years.

In other words, dumping ALPA will yield no benefits. When the euphoria of the short-sighted USAir East pilots wears off this will become painfully obvious. A new scapegoat will need to be found. My guess is it will be USAPA.

I hope your right TWA Dude, you usually are. But my guess will be those sheep shaggers will probably point their fingers and blame us for everything, trying to make themselves look like the victim and us the bad guys. I can hear it know, "Those west pilots aren't supporting us, their not contributing. There only thinking about themselves and don't want to help make this a strong company for everyone's future". I

 

[Andy]

And some airlines were in worse financial shape than others. I've noticed a bit of a trend: the worse-off the airline the bigger the concessions extracted from the union. Do you disagree?

Again, you do not understand. You are talking a COMPLETELY different issue than I am.
I am referring to the amount of sacrifice across the pilot group, amount of junior sacrifice vs senior sacrifice. You are referring to the total sacrifice extracted from the entire pilot group.
As a former TWAer, I am surprised that you are having difficulties with that concept.

To keep it simple: think in terms of distribution of sacrifice across the seniority list. Did all pilots share equally in sacrifices and division of crumbs thrown the union's way? I'm not talking about the total sum of concessions extracted from the entire pilot population. One only needs look at the widebody vs narrowbody work rules out of C2003.

 

[TWA Dude]

Again, you do not understand. You are talking a COMPLETELY different issue than I am.
I am referring to the amount of sacrifice across the pilot group, amount of junior sacrifice vs senior sacrifice.

On this you're right. I tried to keep my arguments focused on ALPA vs USAPA or any other union. You're on a different tangent.

 

[regionaltard]

You have legitimate gripes about your representation and won't take that away from you. My point is that ALPA is the convenient scapegoat. I submit that no other union would've or could've achieved anything substantially better. The economy, the government, bankruptcy court, and the airline's financials are what caused the terrible concessions of the last seven years.

In other words, dumping ALPA will yield no benefits. When the euphoria of the short-sighted USAir East pilots wears off this will become painfully obvious. A new scapegoat will need to be found. My guess is it will be USAPA.

You are correct to say that dumping ALPA essentially amounts to the East cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Your estimate of ALPA's culpability in the events of the last decade or so is also off by several orders of magnitude. When the Association put its official seal of approval on the notion of a group of second-class citizens within its ranks it legitimized the kind of pilot-on-pilot economic warfare that it was originally conceived to prevent. All management has had to do is sit back and give the process a nudge from time to time; we've done all of the heavy lifting for them.

 

[metrolet]

Bruce Lakefield USAirways CEO put together the outside investment for the transaction.

 

[waveflyer]

Bruce Lakefield USAirways CEO put together the outside investment for the transaction.

who cares?

 

[Marko Ramius]

I submit that no other union would've or could've achieved anything substantially better. The economy, the government, bankruptcy court, and the airline's financials are what caused the terrible concessions of the last seven years.

I never said that another union was the answer or that they would have done better. You're arguing something that I am not. I was merely responding to a question that PCL asked with a lot of background info so that he might understand the underlying frustration. Much of what was done by UA ALPA to the furloughees was done before BK. They gave up on scope and furlough grievances in Nov. 2001, 11 mos. before BK with full knowledge of both how many SJ's were coming and that management had publicly stated that it wanted to furlough 20% of the pilots.

In other words, dumping ALPA will yield no benefits. When the euphoria of the short-sighted USAir East pilots wears off this will become painfully obvious. A new scapegoat will need to be found. My guess is it will be USAPA.

You are right. In UA's case it was a terrible failure of union leadership combined with a pilot group who just wasn't prepared for what was happening and needed strong leadership to show the way. Only 9% of UA's pilot group in 2001 was around for 1985, less for the last furloughs in the 1978 and the 'Blue Skies' deal in the early 80's.

As far as UsAir East goes, they've never been happy with anything as a group and likely never will be. The big mistake was Doug Parker and his team not realizing what they were biting off way more than they could chew and to some extent early on the feeling of most UsWest pilots that they could ultimately deal with the East rationally when all evidence and history of who they were both dealing with was right in front of them.

http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoday/arc/airwaves/aw0203/merge0302.pdf
http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoday/arc/airwaves/aw0102/merger0201.pdf
http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoday/arc/airwaves/aw0012/merge1200.pdf
http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoday/arc/airwaves/aw0010/merg1000.pdf

In the end, I think you will be right, USAPA will be yet another scapegoat. USAPA won't work, it won't change the list and will ultimately fail under the weight of unrealistic expectations, lack of resources, and now two groups of pilots who will never be satisfied with what their 'leadership' comes up with. It's ultimate legacy will likely be determined by how much longer that they can drag out negotiations on a contract so that the two carriers still remain separate in an unofficial fence situation. Barring another merger to 'speed' things up, it seems like this will ultimately end up with Airways rejoining ALPA after USAPA runs out steam with their fruitless efforts and the majority of the East decides the fences have been up long enough.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again, you do not understand. You are talking a COMPLETELY different issue than I am.
I am referring to the amount of sacrifice across the pilot group, amount of junior sacrifice vs senior sacrifice. You are referring to the total sacrifice extracted from the entire pilot group.
As a former TWAer, I am surprised that you are having difficulties with that concept.

To keep it simple: think in terms of distribution of sacrifice across the seniority list. Did all pilots share equally in sacrifices and division of crumbs thrown the union's way? I'm not talking about the total sum of concessions extracted from the entire pilot population. One only needs look at the widebody vs narrowbody work rules out of C2003.

Agreed-

The pilot seniority lists in our industry are a mirror of our culture and economic distribution: the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

A senior pilot making $175/hour.
A new hire making $35-45 hour.

$20/hr from the senior pilot given to the new hire. The senior pilot can easily make adjustments, and the $20 would be a godsend to the new hire pilot.


The divisiveness, disdain and animosity amongts us can be reduced if we create a bit more economic equality amongts us. Because we always talk about how the senior guys screw the junior guys.

In europe this is so. Senior pilots work every other Christmas.


A story I heard a few weeks ago: At American a DC-10 FE was getting furloughed flying his last trips. The CA and FO were talking about thier toys as the CA pulled out pictures of his boat named "Open Time".


The problem is.... how do we get the senior guys to give up thier boats so the junior guys can take care of their family?

 

[WSurf]

The problem is.... how do we get the senior guys to give up thier boats so the junior guys can take care of their family?

Easy, you the junior guy must live within your means until you become that Senior guy.

Then you can be on top and telling the guy your flying with all about your Boat.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed-

The pilot seniority lists in our industry are a mirror of our culture and economic distribution: the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

A senior pilot making $175/hour.
A new hire making $35-45 hour.

$20/hr from the senior pilot given to the new hire. The senior pilot can easily make adjustments, and the $20 would be a godsend to the new hire pilot.


The divisiveness, disdain and animosity amongts us can be reduced if we create a bit more economic equality amongts us. Because we always talk about how the senior guys screw the junior guys.

In europe this is so. Senior pilots work every other Christmas.


A story I heard a few weeks ago: At American a DC-10 FE was getting furloughed flying his last trips. The CA and FO were talking about thier toys as the CA pulled out pictures of his boat named "Open Time".


The problem is.... how do we get the senior guys to give up thier boats so the junior guys can take care of their family?

...now we're getting somewhere.....I hate to say it, but I agree.....

IMO, the European airline system is better....They also pay the same across all aircraft.....It is actually a much better system...the young folks get to do the international stuff and the older people get to stay in the same time zone.....Win-win.....

Now as to the "how"...The only way to convince the top is if they feel their "boat" will be threatened if we don't change.....I don't think anything else will work.....