USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[av8tor76]

You'll notice that I stopped doing that after a very short time. I was pretty pissed off at the guy, and it was a juvenile response, much like the use of "alpo."

you're still a returd...

 

[Marko Ramius]

We've gotten the furlough longevity resolution passed at every UAL council. The MEC's buried it on their priority list. If you're involved with the union, you should know that.
You and I both know that the power is in the MEC seats. You also know that we aren't going to get any committee chairs until we have MEC seats. We've already got part of the 2172 in lower level union positions but they aren't going to advance to higher positions until we have a few MEC seats. Wait until the next election.

The irony for you of course is that much like Whiteford and the '78 crew and the 570, the 2172 are facing an uphill battle to attain those MEC seats until they are senior. I hope I am wrong bigtime on that, but looking at history and the sentiment of some of those currently in power you can see where I'm coming from. Btw, I hope you were posting from an internet hash cafe when you said that you trust Tilton & UA management more than ALPA. A lot of ill stuff has gone down in the 8 years since you started there from both the company and ALPA, but the one thing that has remained constant is that no union efforts good or bad can overwhelm management who has no interest in running the show to win. It's scary when you can say that Wolf(for a while at least) did more to position UA product in the marketplace than Tilton has even attempted.

 

[FR8mastr]

All I know is you AAA guys might want to make sure that you stay really far away from PHX. And if you are stupid enough to bid out here make sure you don't park your nice car in the parking lot.

I'm just being realistic.

typical tough guy, threatens a defenseless car.

 

[Andy]

I'm not really up on UAL ALPA politics. What exactly is the "2172?"

The furloughees.

 

[Andy]

The irony for you of course is that much like Whiteford and the '78 crew and the 570, the 2172 are facing an uphill battle to attain those MEC seats until they are senior. I hope I am wrong bigtime on that, but looking at history and the sentiment of some of those currently in power you can see where I'm coming from. Btw, I hope you were posting from an internet hash cafe when you said that you trust Tilton & UA management more than ALPA. A lot of ill stuff has gone down in the 8 years since you started there from both the company and ALPA, but the one thing that has remained constant is that no union efforts good or bad can overwhelm management who has no interest in running the show to win. It's scary when you can say that Wolf(for a while at least) did more to position UA product in the marketplace than Tilton has even attempted.

I shouldn't post when on pain medications (bad back).
It's not that I trust Tilton et al, it's just that I know they don't even bother to tell me it's raining when they pisssing down my back. I don't feel the same about the union. The age 65 crap merely put me over the edge.

While UALdriver has suggested that we seize the union, he knows that it cannot be done in short order, it takes time. We are a much bigger block than any other block of pilots, but have near zero say in matters since we don't have seats at the table.

As for the internet cafe, no, I was laid up on my couch. I guess I need to start using a mirror to check under my car or get a remote starter.

 

[Marko Ramius]

It's not that I trust Tilton et al, it's just that I know they don't even bother to tell me it's raining when they pisssing down my back. I don't feel the same about the union. The age 65 crap merely put me over the edge.

Understood and I agree on the Age 65 thing. What you said just stood out to me when you consider how poorly management has done things-the system survives because it has good positions at some excellent hubsites more than management's moves-you know the things the AAA East guys have always spouted about their system for years that hasn't played out nearly as well.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Just for PCL

The furloughees.

Andy gave you the quick version, here's the dirty one. The first 591 were furloughed at the end of Oct. 2001 along with the parking of the entire 727 and 737-291 fleets. About 24 of that group were furloughed in violation of the contracts no furlough provisions. Provisions that were written by the same guy who wrote the DAL contract language that was successfully grieved and some say the UAL language was in fact stronger and more detailed as far as outlining scenarios that didn't justify force majeure. Additionally the contract had language for minimum pilot numbers overall, minimum block hour numbers for mainline each year, minimum mainline pilot numbers to operate SJ's, and adjustments to those SJ numbers in the event of a UA pilot furlough.

Essentially, only about 567 probationary pilots could have been legally furloughed by the contract language and that should have resulted in no more SJ's above the 65 agreed to previously in the RJ LOA as well as recalls about a year or two later when retirements caught up with the minimum pilot number or the block hour limits. All of this stuff was covered by an expedited grievance process.

What did happen was that the expedited grievances were filed on both the non-probationary furloughs and the SJ issue. In Nov. 2001, UA ALPA surrendered on both counts. Officially, the grievances were held in abeyance to be heard at different time. The SJ's continued to flow in at rates that were in violation of the contract and UA ALPA failed to negotiate a deal to get their guys jobs with the Express carriers and those carriers unions looked the other way as well. The furloughees were first told that their grievances would have a better outcome with some distance from 9/11, then they were told that the grievances would be settled as part of concessionary deal to get a government loan. Meanwhile, another 253 hit the street in March of 2002. Then UA ALPA's first 'solution' hit the streets: longevity for furloughees but no recalls or $$$ for the contract violations, a reworking of the SJ limits to legitimize what they had already allowed, a dropping of the minimum block hour limits to less than was currently in service with no increases, and a dropping of the minimum pilot numbers that would push recalls off further, along with modest paycuts. All basically in exchange for Contract 2000 book rates being used for A fund pension calculations and agreeing to settle the outstanding grievances with the concessionary deal. This proposal never got a vote because the ATSB turned UA's first request down, but it was resurrected 4 mos. later as part of a last ditch effort with the ATSB prior to filling BK. The second proposal had bigger paycuts, the same stuff for SJ's, minimum pilots, and block hours, but inexplicably the longevity credit was dropped. The ATSB balked again and UA went into BK and the paycuts were quickly instituted but the rest of the stuff was essentially settled in a terrible concessionary deal in 2003. No longevity credit, nothing for grievances, and several 'geniuses' voted for their own furlough as another 1319 bodies flowed out the door. All along UA ALPA made excuses about the fact that they were willing to throw anything on the fire to save the A fund which was ultimately lost anyway in exchange for zip.

Long story? Yup, but it's not the one you'll hear around the offices in Herndon and it might help you further understand some of the frustration your hear out there from your ALPA brothers.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm not really up on UAL ALPA politics. What exactly is the "2172?"

UA furloughed 2172 guys during our last downturn. Some of them call their group "The 2172." They have their own internet forum, they do stuff like leave 2172 in the transponders between flights, they leave little 2172 stickers around ops and the cockpits, etc., stuff like that. We have a group from the strike of '85 who referred to themselves as "The 570" and I think they're trying to model their unity as the 570 group did and still do to this day.

Like I told Andy, I'd be thrilled if 1/2 of them even cared to participate in their Union. That would probably increase participation in Union activity by about 5 fold.

 

[TWA Dude]

Long story? Yup, but it's not the one you'll hear around the offices in Herndon and it might help you further understand some of the frustration your hear out there from your ALPA brothers.

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

And those statements sum up exactly the problem ALPA has to deal with concerning its membership!

When things are going great, ALPA is better than sliced bread. But when things get bad, the industry is in a downturn and/or bad things start to happen, it's ALPA's fault. Certainly ALPA makes errors, but the end result is going to be roughly the same. Guys get furloughed, take paycuts, get demoted and it's all ALPA's fault. It's never the JetBlue or Virgin America's guy fault for massively undercutting and putting downward pressure on wages and working for no retirement. It's never the economy. It's never overzealous management. It's just ALPA's fault. As if unions can wave a magic wand and make 100's of millions of dollars appear on an airlines' bottom line to cover the higher expense of Union wages and work rules, make Congressmen vote they way they want concerning Age 60, or make management a little more labor friendly in the bankruptcy proceedings.

Oh well....