USAPA resignation

[becket]

1 thing is correct in your above statement, neither of us 2 grunts (yes that includes me so don't take it personal) will decide the outcome of this debacle.

I have 2 questions for you. The first is how come you are so willing to sacrifice someone else's Seniority. You and Kirby(US Air Bean counter) seem to have the same rational. The I don't care what happens to them, as long as I get mine, mantra. Maybe you should apply for a job with the accounting and labor relations part US Air corporate structure. You would fit right in.

The second question, is there or has there ever been a union in the United States that has allowed a sixteen year member to be placed below a new member who hasn't even completed indoc. training?? Just asking, I honestly don't know the answer.

I apologize in advance for the bean counter statement. I realize that was overly harsh. This really wouldn't be flight info, the hatfield and mccoy's or the Jerry Springer if i didn't sling some shiz in your general direction. The sad fact, in my humble opinion, is that there are some glaring inconsistencies with ALPO merger policy and the final outcome of the seniority list. Both Pilot groups will suffer for years to come because of it. Lets raise a glass to masochism...

Question 1. is Easy. You're confusing "I got mine" with "I'm not handing mine over to correct for your abysmal career/choices" or "I'm not going to allow you to rebuild what you perceived you lost on my back"

That's easy enough to understand right?

Question 2. ALPA is the Airline Pilots ASSOCIATION. Not a Union. Each airline is a quasi independent organization. So your question is fundamentally flawed. I know it's not what you want to hear because this tired old "16 year/indoc" thing gets all your panties so easily bunched but it's a FACT.

 

[doh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MDA fly on the same operating certificate as mainline? And didn't they win money from USAirways because of this? And didn't ALPA leave them off the list they presented to Nicolau? Hence the lawsuit against ALPA by the MDA pilots. I hope they trounce ALPA in their lawsuit! If you are on one operating certificate, you have to be one list!

 

[becket]

If you are on one operating certificate, you have to be one list!

Show me that law

 

[doh]

Contract.

 

[TWA Dude]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MDA fly on the same operating certificate as mainline?

Yes, however, it was operated as a separate division. The significance of that is debatable.

And didn't they win money from USAirways because of this?

I believe you're referring to the arbitration regarding longevity pay. I don't know the details but I think they won it.

And didn't ALPA leave them off the list they presented to Nicolau?

Nope, they're on the Nicolau list.

Hence the lawsuit against ALPA by the MDA pilots. I hope they trounce ALPA in their lawsuit!

It'll be a tough case to win. Anybody know the exact current status of the suit?

If you are on one operating certificate, you have to be one list!

They're on the list. You just might disagree with their position. Nicolau already ruled on it.

 

[Cowboy75]

Judge Wake welcomes USAPA's counsel back to the desert. Just like the good ol days.

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

 

[241BlujucCktl]

Question 1. is Easy. You're confusing "I got mine" with "I'm not handing mine over to correct for your abysmal career/choices" or "I'm not going to allow you to rebuild what you perceived you lost on my back"

That's easy enough to understand right?

Question 2. ALPA is the Airline Pilots ASSOCIATION. Not a Union. Each airline is a quasi independent organization. So your question is fundamentally flawed. I know it's not what you want to hear because this tired old "16 year/indoc" thing gets all your panties so easily bunched but it's a FACT.

Yes Mr. becket i agree, your choice of working at AWA was a poor one as was mine to work for US Air. I tell you, the east will give you back the 3% of flying that we are doing of yours if the west gives back the 20% that you flying for us. How many more furloughs would that be for the west?? What about project Zanizabar, you guys damn sure weren't going to survive another bankruptcy. What is the revenue flow out of LAS and PHX these days?? Listen the truth is a bunch of Gordon Geko/Enron types decided they wanted to put these 2 airlines together and give themselves a big bonus. Your pilots and our pilots had nothing to do with it other than enduring the suffering.

As for my second question, I will rephrase it for you. What union or association if any has ever allowed a member with 16 years of service to be placed below a brand new member who hasn't even started paying dues yet on a seniority list?? I do not know of any. Please enlighten me.

 

[becket]

Yes Mr. becket i agree, your choice of working at AWA was a poor one as was mine to work for US Air. I tell you, the east will give you back the 3% of flying that we are doing of yours if the west gives back the 20% that you flying for us. How many more furloughs would that be for the west?? What about project Zanizabar, you guys damn sure weren't going to survive another bankruptcy. What is the revenue flow out of LAS and PHX these days?? Listen the truth is a bunch of Gordon Geko/Enron types decided they wanted to put these 2 airlines together and give themselves a big bonus. Your pilots and our pilots had nothing to do with it other than enduring the suffering.

As for my second question, I will rephrase it for you. What union or association if any has ever allowed a member with 16 years of service to be placed below a brand new member who hasn't even started paying dues yet on a seniority list?? I do not know of any. Please enlighten me.

1. I don't fly for US Air.
2. There is no more "your" or "their" flying. You have a fundamentaly NEW airline to deal with. Your old US Air is road kill. It's over. You're lucky you got a fresh start frankly.
3. You acknowledge that the pilots are just along for the ride so why waste your time asking other pilots to return "your" flying. Exhibit A that your old way of life is rotting in it's grave.

As to question 2.

ALPA. That's your answer....is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[regionaltard]

Cowboy you post to much. cant you see that your view that a furloughed pilot should be placed behind a pilot who brought a job to the merger is not popular with the angry FO club?

Fixed it.

 

[get2flyin]

1 thing is correct in your above statement, neither of us 2 grunts (yes that includes me so don't take it personal) will decide the outcome of this debacle.

I don't take it personally at all. We don't have to agree to be coworkers or share the same cockpit, regardless who throws gear for who. The bottom like is, you are right, we are just cogs in the wheel and our fate doesn't lie in our hands. It's very frustrating for both of us.

I have 2 questions for you. The first is how come you are so willing to sacrifice someone else's Seniority. You and Kirby(US Air Bean counter) seem to have the same rational. The I don't care what happens to them, as long as I get mine, mantra. Maybe you should apply for a job with the accounting and labor relations part US Air corporate structure. You would fit right in.

I disagree with your perspective. I simply cannot comprehend the idea that a guy on the bottom of the seniority list (on the East) should be able to pole-vault into the left seat of an entirely different company (on the West). Essentially, that is what you are asking for. If you were a mid-pack FO or Captain to begin with, after merging that is what you should remain. As far as the bean counter comment, while I love math I hate accounting. I think I'll stick with flying.

The second question, is there or has there ever been a union in the United States that has allowed a sixteen year member to be placed below a new member who hasn't even completed indoc. training?? Just asking, I honestly don't know the answer.

I don't know the answer to that. I talked to a NWA guy who told me during one of their old mergers while trying to determine an integration strategy, new-hires about to start groundschool at the smaller airline were transferred to the "acquiring" company. The negotiations turned sour and all the pilots at the "acquired" company ended up getting stapled...below the guys that were suppose to be new-hires but were transferred over. That's unconscionable to me, but sometimes the unthinkable happens. I don't think the Nic decision was wild and crazy, but we each have our opinions on that.

I apologize in advance for the bean counter statement. I realize that was overly harsh. This really wouldn't be flight info, the hatfield and mccoy's or the Jerry Springer if i didn't sling some shiz in your general direction. The sad fact, in my humble opinion, is that there are some glaring inconsistencies with ALPO merger policy and the final outcome of the seniority list. Both Pilot groups will suffer for years to come because of it. Lets raise a glass to masochism...

No apology required. I'm thick skinned from the licks this industry has dished out and I'm sure you are as well. The shiz flows both ways. I also am frustrated with ALPA for their inconsistencies. But I am also pissed at their failure to follow their own procedure. Prater is a horrible leader and as much as I fail to see how USAPA represents ANY West pilot, I find ALPA national only slightly better. Their structure breeds a political "me" mentality and unfortunately whether you believe it or not, one that I think your USAPA leadership has begun to emulate.

Consider my glass raised. Cheers, Mate.