USAPA resignation

[becket]

1 thing is correct in your above statement, neither of us 2 grunts (yes that includes me so don't take it personal) will decide the outcome of this debacle.

I have 2 questions for you. The first is how come you are so willing to sacrifice someone else's Seniority. You and Kirby(US Air Bean counter) seem to have the same rational. The I don't care what happens to them, as long as I get mine, mantra. Maybe you should apply for a job with the accounting and labor relations part US Air corporate structure. You would fit right in.

The second question, is there or has there ever been a union in the United States that has allowed a sixteen year member to be placed below a new member who hasn't even completed indoc. training?? Just asking, I honestly don't know the answer.

I apologize in advance for the bean counter statement. I realize that was overly harsh. This really wouldn't be flight info, the hatfield and mccoy's or the Jerry Springer if i didn't sling some shiz in your general direction. The sad fact, in my humble opinion, is that there are some glaring inconsistencies with ALPO merger policy and the final outcome of the seniority list. Both Pilot groups will suffer for years to come because of it. Lets raise a glass to masochism...

Question 1. is Easy. You're confusing "I got mine" with "I'm not handing mine over to correct for your abysmal career/choices" or "I'm not going to allow you to rebuild what you perceived you lost on my back"

That's easy enough to understand right?

Question 2. ALPA is the Airline Pilots ASSOCIATION. Not a Union. Each airline is a quasi independent organization. So your question is fundamentally flawed. I know it's not what you want to hear because this tired old "16 year/indoc" thing gets all your panties so easily bunched but it's a FACT.

 

[doh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MDA fly on the same operating certificate as mainline? And didn't they win money from USAirways because of this? And didn't ALPA leave them off the list they presented to Nicolau? Hence the lawsuit against ALPA by the MDA pilots. I hope they trounce ALPA in their lawsuit! If you are on one operating certificate, you have to be one list!

 

[becket]

If you are on one operating certificate, you have to be one list!

Show me that law

 

[doh]

Contract.

 

[TWA Dude]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't MDA fly on the same operating certificate as mainline?

Yes, however, it was operated as a separate division. The significance of that is debatable.

And didn't they win money from USAirways because of this?

I believe you're referring to the arbitration regarding longevity pay. I don't know the details but I think they won it.

And didn't ALPA leave them off the list they presented to Nicolau?

Nope, they're on the Nicolau list.

Hence the lawsuit against ALPA by the MDA pilots. I hope they trounce ALPA in their lawsuit!

It'll be a tough case to win. Anybody know the exact current status of the suit?

If you are on one operating certificate, you have to be one list!

They're on the list. You just might disagree with their position. Nicolau already ruled on it.

 

[Cowboy75]

Judge Wake welcomes USAPA's counsel back to the desert. Just like the good ol days.

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

 

[241BlujucCktl]

Question 1. is Easy. You're confusing "I got mine" with "I'm not handing mine over to correct for your abysmal career/choices" or "I'm not going to allow you to rebuild what you perceived you lost on my back"

That's easy enough to understand right?

Question 2. ALPA is the Airline Pilots ASSOCIATION. Not a Union. Each airline is a quasi independent organization. So your question is fundamentally flawed. I know it's not what you want to hear because this tired old "16 year/indoc" thing gets all your panties so easily bunched but it's a FACT.

Yes Mr. becket i agree, your choice of working at AWA was a poor one as was mine to work for US Air. I tell you, the east will give you back the 3% of flying that we are doing of yours if the west gives back the 20% that you flying for us. How many more furloughs would that be for the west?? What about project Zanizabar, you guys damn sure weren't going to survive another bankruptcy. What is the revenue flow out of LAS and PHX these days?? Listen the truth is a bunch of Gordon Geko/Enron types decided they wanted to put these 2 airlines together and give themselves a big bonus. Your pilots and our pilots had nothing to do with it other than enduring the suffering.

As for my second question, I will rephrase it for you. What union or association if any has ever allowed a member with 16 years of service to be placed below a brand new member who hasn't even started paying dues yet on a seniority list?? I do not know of any. Please enlighten me.

 

[becket]

Yes Mr. becket i agree, your choice of working at AWA was a poor one as was mine to work for US Air. I tell you, the east will give you back the 3% of flying that we are doing of yours if the west gives back the 20% that you flying for us. How many more furloughs would that be for the west?? What about project Zanizabar, you guys damn sure weren't going to survive another bankruptcy. What is the revenue flow out of LAS and PHX these days?? Listen the truth is a bunch of Gordon Geko/Enron types decided they wanted to put these 2 airlines together and give themselves a big bonus. Your pilots and our pilots had nothing to do with it other than enduring the suffering.

As for my second question, I will rephrase it for you. What union or association if any has ever allowed a member with 16 years of service to be placed below a brand new member who hasn't even started paying dues yet on a seniority list?? I do not know of any. Please enlighten me.

1. I don't fly for US Air.
2. There is no more "your" or "their" flying. You have a fundamentaly NEW airline to deal with. Your old US Air is road kill. It's over. You're lucky you got a fresh start frankly.
3. You acknowledge that the pilots are just along for the ride so why waste your time asking other pilots to return "your" flying. Exhibit A that your old way of life is rotting in it's grave.

As to question 2.

ALPA. That's your answer....is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[regionaltard]

Cowboy you post to much. cant you see that your view that a furloughed pilot should be placed behind a pilot who brought a job to the merger is not popular with the angry FO club?

Fixed it.

 

[get2flyin]

1 thing is correct in your above statement, neither of us 2 grunts (yes that includes me so don't take it personal) will decide the outcome of this debacle.

I don't take it personally at all. We don't have to agree to be coworkers or share the same cockpit, regardless who throws gear for who. The bottom like is, you are right, we are just cogs in the wheel and our fate doesn't lie in our hands. It's very frustrating for both of us.

I have 2 questions for you. The first is how come you are so willing to sacrifice someone else's Seniority. You and Kirby(US Air Bean counter) seem to have the same rational. The I don't care what happens to them, as long as I get mine, mantra. Maybe you should apply for a job with the accounting and labor relations part US Air corporate structure. You would fit right in.

I disagree with your perspective. I simply cannot comprehend the idea that a guy on the bottom of the seniority list (on the East) should be able to pole-vault into the left seat of an entirely different company (on the West). Essentially, that is what you are asking for. If you were a mid-pack FO or Captain to begin with, after merging that is what you should remain. As far as the bean counter comment, while I love math I hate accounting. I think I'll stick with flying.

The second question, is there or has there ever been a union in the United States that has allowed a sixteen year member to be placed below a new member who hasn't even completed indoc. training?? Just asking, I honestly don't know the answer.

I don't know the answer to that. I talked to a NWA guy who told me during one of their old mergers while trying to determine an integration strategy, new-hires about to start groundschool at the smaller airline were transferred to the "acquiring" company. The negotiations turned sour and all the pilots at the "acquired" company ended up getting stapled...below the guys that were suppose to be new-hires but were transferred over. That's unconscionable to me, but sometimes the unthinkable happens. I don't think the Nic decision was wild and crazy, but we each have our opinions on that.

I apologize in advance for the bean counter statement. I realize that was overly harsh. This really wouldn't be flight info, the hatfield and mccoy's or the Jerry Springer if i didn't sling some shiz in your general direction. The sad fact, in my humble opinion, is that there are some glaring inconsistencies with ALPO merger policy and the final outcome of the seniority list. Both Pilot groups will suffer for years to come because of it. Lets raise a glass to masochism...

No apology required. I'm thick skinned from the licks this industry has dished out and I'm sure you are as well. The shiz flows both ways. I also am frustrated with ALPA for their inconsistencies. But I am also pissed at their failure to follow their own procedure. Prater is a horrible leader and as much as I fail to see how USAPA represents ANY West pilot, I find ALPA national only slightly better. Their structure breeds a political "me" mentality and unfortunately whether you believe it or not, one that I think your USAPA leadership has begun to emulate.

Consider my glass raised. Cheers, Mate.

 

[241BlujucCktl]

1. I don't fly for US Air.
2. There is no more "your" or "their" flying. You have a fundamentaly NEW airline to deal with. Your old US Air is road kill. It's over. You're lucky you got a fresh start frankly.
3. You acknowledge that the pilots are just along for the ride so why waste your time asking other pilots to return "your" flying. Exhibit A that your old way of life is rotting in it's grave.

As to question 2.

ALPA. That's your answer....is that what you wanted to hear?

First of all congrats on not flying for US Air. May you be so fortunate that you never fly under such a self serving, opportunistic management scheme as the current US Air. Because you don't fly for US Air, you are painfully ignorant as to the division of labor at the current US Airways. Basically the merger is complete in name only. Until a single contract is ratified, Us Air operates under the provisions of the transition agreement which keeps the majority of flying separated into AWA (west) flying and US Air (east) flying. I do apologize for assuming that you are/were form the AWA side. Due to the passion and ignorance of your posts, I wrongly assumed you were a west pilot about to spew the never tiresome mantra "Our pilots saved your company therefore we should be placed above you in the seniority list".

As to your answer to my second question, I ask just 1 more. Why is it that you nor I could find any example or legal precedence of a union or association placing a new hire above a 16 year industry veteran on a seniority list prior to the Nic award?

 

[BeCareful!]

I simply cannot comprehend the idea that a guy on the bottom of the seniority list (on the East) should be able to pole-vault into the left seat of an entirely different company (on the West).

Neither can USAPA, which is why their proposal doesn't even remotely resemble your "pole-vault" story. That would be completely impossible due to the extremely west-favorable C&R's, but I know you guys like your drama. Your remark is inflammatory and shows that you haven't even taken the time to see what their C&R's say. When and if you do (which I know is not likely) you'll find that there are numerous advantages to USAPA's proposal for westies.

As for your remark that USAPA isn't representing west pilots....you must not be including all the termination cases they've saved you guys on, the contract implementation stuff, scheduling stuff, and about a hundred other things they are doing for all of us every day. But alas, this is the Internet, where accountability shouldn't get in the way of making a bold statement, ain't that right get2flyin?

 

[Guppiedriver]

Neither can USAPA, which is why their proposal doesn't even remotely resemble your "pole-vault" story. That would be completely impossible due to the extremely west-favorable C&R's, but I know you guys like your drama. Your remark is inflammatory and shows that you haven't even taken the time to see what their C&R's say. When and if you do (which I know is not likely) you'll find that there are numerous advantages to USAPA's proposal for westies.

As for your remark that USAPA isn't representing west pilots....you must not be including all the termination cases they've saved you guys on, the contract implementation stuff, scheduling stuff, and about a hundred other things they are doing for all of us every day. But alas, this is the Internet, where accountability shouldn't get in the way of making a bold statement, ain't that right get2flyin?

I have read the C&R's many times. The do not favor the west, PERIOD. Your so called "west favorable C&R's" allow east pilots to bid west upgrades at a 1:1 ratio. They allow west pilots to bid east captain slots too, but only the top 10% of our list could hold a captain slot with a DOH seniority list. Don't even get me started on the furlough clause, it's a joke. Please point out the numerous advantages that the C&R's provide us?

USAPA provides the absolute bare minimum services to the west in order to look like they represent all pilots equally. How much influence has the west had with the NAC? BPR? Construction of the C&R's? The west reps can't even send out an update to the west pilots without first going through USAPA's Department of Censorship.

But alas, this is the Internet, where accountability shouldn't get in the way of making a bold statement, ain't that right becareful?

 

[Ocity]

.....

 

[becket]

First of all congrats on not flying for US Air. May you be so fortunate that you never fly under such a self serving, opportunistic management scheme as the current US Air. Because you don't fly for US Air, you are painfully ignorant as to the division of labor at the current US Airways. Basically the merger is complete in name only. Until a single contract is ratified, Us Air operates under the provisions of the transition agreement which keeps the majority of flying separated into AWA (west) flying and US Air (east) flying. I do apologize for assuming that you are/were form the AWA side. Due to the passion and ignorance of your posts, I wrongly assumed you were a west pilot about to spew the never tiresome mantra "Our pilots saved your company therefore we should be placed above you in the seniority list".

As to your answer to my second question, I ask just 1 more. Why is it that you nor I could find any example or legal precedence of a union or association placing a new hire above a 16 year industry veteran on a seniority list prior to the Nic award?

You'd be surprised how well versed I am in your little squabble. The West pilots of course did not save your company. America West did. As far as your question is concerned, I'm hardly well versed enough in Union History to provide you with an answer you'd find adequate. Just because You or I can't name a similar circumstance off the tops of our heads hardly means that a travesty has occurred.

Read Nicolaus' biography and list of accomplishments, acknowledge the fact that there were two pilot neutrals that praised Nic. for his wisdom aside from one expressing the opinion that those already recalled (after the POI) should have been given some consideration. I don't know why, without the merger there would have been no POI to begin with and those returning furloughees would have joined their parked aircraft in the Mojave on a permanent vacation. It's Irrelevant as it's a matter of opinion. Let me rephrase your question back to you. When in History has two groups/companies of such disparate circumstances ever been slapped together?

Each merger turns upon it's own circumstances. Your ELECTED leadership failed you when they didn't have the stones to tell ALL OF YOU to forget straight DOH. That was pure fantasy. Anyway, we're obviously not going to agree. I think this thing is coming to a head in a Fed. court soon. The surest sign that this is moving fwd is the vehemence of USAPAs opposition to any outside scrutiny. Their meter is pegged, they're f'ed and know it but they've dug a hole unimaginably deep, and filled it back in with so many empty promises and lies that they'll never find a way out. They'll also never have a moment of clarity sufficient enough to stop the bleeding of ALL the US Air pilots. Decertification is a clear and present danger to Cleary et. al. BTW.

I understand projecting all of your career failures upon the West and Doug Parker...it's probably human nature. However, I remember when Wolf and Gangwal were considered the anti-christ. They put your airline into a nosedive, Parker pulled out of it for you. That's not even debatable. At least you could say, "thank you".

 

[Bringupthebird]

Project Zanzibar, eh? Tell us every excruciating detail of that plan, would you? Too early in the morning for red herring.

 

[St. Nic]

Zanzibar was alive and real, Parker mentioned it himself and I am looking for the reference since you demand one! Honestly, you have to take off your rose colored glasses and realize the POS your company was and always has been. AWA was bottom of the barrel for desirable places to work. And that is why your entitlement attitude to our upgrades and widebodies is so sick

 

[Cowboy75]

Project Zanzibar, eh? Tell us every excruciating detail of that plan, would you? Too early in the morning for red herring.

They just can't accept the fact that America West was the acquiring airline. They would have you think that UsAir bought America West, hired Doug Parker as the CEO and moved the HQ to Tempe, AZ. :laugh:

 

[TWA Dude]

Zanzibar was alive and real, Parker mentioned it himself and I am looking for the reference since you demand one!

This is worth discussing. "Zanzibar" was AWA's plan for a trip through bankruptcy if needed at some point in the future. Wow, an airline in the early 00's with a plan for potential bankruptcy. What a shocker. And also irrelevant. All that matters is that on the snapshot date soon after the merger closed AWA was a solvent company with aircraft deliveries in progress -- while US Airways was in bankruptcy with no exit plan filed and actively dumping aircraft. Can you say "career expectations"? Nicolau could.

And that is why your entitlement attitude to our upgrades and widebodies is so sick

All we're entitled to is the Nicolau list. No more; no less.

 

[Cowboy75]

This is worth discussing. "Zanzibar" was AWA's plan for a trip through bankruptcy if needed at some point in the future. Wow, an airline in the early 00's with a plan for potential bankruptcy. What a shocker. And also irrelevant

Just imagine the military not having a contingency plan. Same goes for business planning. PZ was presented to Nicolau by the East MEC along with other arguments considered in arbitration. The arbitrated list is done and accepted by the company yet we keep hearing the same old arguments. Wasted breath debating the Nic Award after the fact.