Usapa lost!

[waveflyer]

Not a terrible idea taco

 

[cactusboy53]

This is a step in the right direction.

Why did it take you guys years to join (and thus vote)?

In retrospect, was that a tactical failure?

We have. PHX has about 1100 votes, thereby giving us the maximum # of USAPA representatives (3). We have had 3 representatives for 2-3 years now. Eric Ferguson was one of the first people to join USAPA and recommended that all AWA pilot's do the same.

The problems are that the remaining BPR members could at any time out-vote the PHX based representatives on any resolution. Further, the USAPA BPR "faithful" have followed el Presidente Cleary and allowed him to do EVERYTHING that he has set out to do. The result? Over $10,000,000 in failed litigation expenses, a current Pension investigation that has cost the east pilot group that will likely recover nothing, a LOA93 Grievance that took over 2 years with no pay out, and a union that is quite nearly in the RED.

We can move forward IF:

1. All of us become members in good standing of USAPA
2. The right combination of leaders are elected in the next election
3. The new leaders change the CBL's to reflect an unaltered Nicolau as the starting point for CBL's.
4. The new leadership rearranges the key committees (NAC, Grievance, Merger, Communications, etc.) with equal number of EXPERIENCED volunteers.
5. We return to the company and seek to start from the previously abandoned contract from 2007 (27 sections CLOSED).

Well, that's the "short list".


CB

 

[cactusboy53]

Well, most of these conditions are unrealistic. You must know that.

But if you want to appeal to wallets (not necessarily hearts) why don't you compensate them with a 20-25 year F/O pay scale that approaches captain's pay? Then it really wouldn't matter who is in what seat. It's an unorthodox idea but in the end money talks.

1. Are Logical (You're saying it's unrealistic to find a logical East pilot?)
2. Are Less emotional (Same as above)
3. Are Realistic (Also Same as above)
4. Are Sick & tired of the USAPA BS that spews forth (did you read the Spike's latest PHL update?? What a load of garbage!). (Still same as above)
5. Understand that the Nicolau Seniority list is the only legal seniority list, and that USAPA & SSM&P sold them a bag of rotten goods. (I'm sorry, but the fact remains that the Nicolau is the only legal list that exists. Any other list will create a DFR or a hybrid DFR. Period).
6. Want a new contract now, and are willing to work together to that end. (You're saying it's unrealistic to find an East pilot that is not willing to work together for a joint contract?)

Regarding the '20-25 year FO's", your suggestion to pay these guys is great. This is something that we can address with a new and improved NAC. Presently the NAC is negotiating a contract that is WORSE than the current AWA contract (giving away the STD for instance). How exactly is that better????

 

[B-atch]

We have. PHX has about 1100 votes, thereby giving us the maximum # of USAPA representatives (3). We have had 3 representatives for 2-3 years now. Eric Ferguson was one of the first people to join USAPA and recommended that all AWA pilot's do the same.

The problems are that the remaining BPR members could at any time out-vote the PHX based representatives on any resolution. Further, the USAPA BPR "faithful" have followed el Presidente Cleary and allowed him to do EVERYTHING that he has set out to do. The result? Over $10,000,000 in failed litigation expenses, a current Pension investigation that has cost the east pilot group that will likely recover nothing, a LOA93 Grievance that took over 2 years with no pay out, and a union that is quite nearly in the RED.

We can move forward IF:

1. All of us become members in good standing of USAPA
2. The right combination of leaders are elected in the next election
3. The new leaders change the CBL's to reflect an unaltered Nicolau as the starting point for CBL's.
4. The new leadership rearranges the key committees (NAC, Grievance, Merger, Communications, etc.) with equal number of EXPERIENCED volunteers.
5. We return to the company and seek to start from the previously abandoned contract from 2007 (27 sections CLOSED).

Well, that's the "short list".


CB

Ahhh...You forgot the UN-marked bills, and the getaway car demand!! Dream on cactus. As in ALL democracies, the majority RULES.. You have 1100, we have 3400. Good luck convincing the east. By the time your PROPAGANDA machine runs its course, this place will be merged!!
West or NO-West!!

 

[cactusboy53]

Ahhh...You forgot the UN-marked bills, and the getaway car demand!! Dream on cactus. As in ALL democracies, the majority RULES.. You have 1100, we have 3400. Good luck convincing the east. By the time your PROPAGANDA machine runs its course, this place will be merged!!
West or NO-West!!

One vote is all you've got B. Just like me. See you in the voting booth. I'll be the guy with a big smile on my face and a hearty hand shake.

 

[Taco Rocket]

1. Are Logical (You're saying it's unrealistic to find a logical East pilot?)
2. Are Less emotional (Same as above)
3. Are Realistic (Also Same as above)
4. Are Sick & tired of the USAPA BS that spews forth (did you read the Spike's latest PHL update?? What a load of garbage!). (Still same as above)
5. Understand that the Nicolau Seniority list is the only legal seniority list, and that USAPA & SSM&P sold them a bag of rotten goods. (I'm sorry, but the fact remains that the Nicolau is the only legal list that exists. Any other list will create a DFR or a hybrid DFR. Period).
6. Want a new contract now, and are willing to work together to that end. (You're saying it's unrealistic to find an East pilot that is not willing to work together for a joint contract?)

Regarding the '20-25 year FO's", your suggestion to pay these guys is great. This is something that we can address with a new and improved NAC. Presently the NAC is negotiating a contract that is WORSE than the current AWA contract (giving away the STD for instance). How exactly is that better????

We can probably agree the last 5 years have been nothing short of a soap opera. Despite many emotional and sometimes irrational events (mailing poop, phone jamming USAPA, not joining USAPA and then being surprised when one can't attend a meeting or vote, getting riled up at a simple call sign change, taking pleasure in others' misfortunes [lurkers I will not use that German word], there are still rational people with whom you can deal. Obviously you agree because you are not wasting your time talking to me: you know the lurkers will decide, and you're right.

I like some of your ideas, and think you are on the right track by moving this debate to the ballot box. The court system will never provide a resolution totally acceptable to all (an analogy might be divorce proceeding or property settlement). Like it or not, it's going to take dialogue and a negotiation.

Something to think about: it's asking a lot -- perhaps all -- for these guys to give up the Nic. What, if anything, to you propose to fill that gap? Negotiations involve solving problems with many moving pieces. You're not going to be able to cement the Nic without moving these other pieces around. And simply reminding lurkers that the Nic was "already agreed to" is not a workable answer, because such an answer sidesteps the inevitable emotional response.

I commented earlier that most of the benefits from a future contract will have to go to the east, to bring the east up to where the west already is. What's left then in the money pot to make the east guys happy? Giving up Nic and simply becoming "average" won't fly. And if you give the east more, will you face a mutiny from your Army of Leonidas?

 

[waveflyer]

This is the tone of a conversation that can actually accomplish something-

 

[Bringupthebird]

Like it or not, it's going to take dialogue and a negotiation.


And if you give the east more, will you face a mutiny from your Army of Leonidas?

Negotiations involve give-and-take. Capitulation doesn't. The east would have to give up far more than just their destructive behavior to approach "negotiations". Plus, the history of USAPA and the east is that they will not commit to "binding" anything, so how do you propose someone negotiate without the obligation to carry out the end product?

What else would the east give up to make the west whole?

 

[cactusboy53]

We can probably agree the last 5 years have been nothing short of a soap opera. Despite many emotional and sometimes irrational events (mailing poop, phone jamming USAPA, not joining USAPA and then being surprised when one can't attend a meeting or vote, getting riled up at a simple call sign change, taking pleasure in others' misfortunes [lurkers I will not use that German word], there are still rational people with whom you can deal. Obviously you agree because you are not wasting your time talking to me: you know the lurkers will decide, and you're right.

I like some of your ideas, and think you are on the right track by moving this debate to the ballot box. The court system will never provide a resolution totally acceptable to all (an analogy might be divorce proceeding or property settlement). Like it or not, it's going to take dialogue and a negotiation.

Something to think about: it's asking a lot -- perhaps all -- for these guys to give up the Nic. What, if anything, to you propose to fill that gap? Negotiations involve solving problems with many moving pieces. You're not going to be able to cement the Nic without moving these other pieces around. And simply reminding lurkers that the Nic was "already agreed to" is not a workable answer, because such an answer sidesteps the inevitable emotional response.

I commented earlier that most of the benefits from a future contract will have to go to the east, to bring the east up to where the west already is. What's left then in the money pot to make the east guys happy? Giving up Nic and simply becoming "average" won't fly. And if you give the east more, will you face a mutiny from your Army of Leonidas?

I'll agree with the last 5 years. BTW, there was no poop, only the accusation of poop. Theuer said he had poop, and threatened to bring out the poop, but failed to produce the poop. Poop in the mail is a serious federal offense (I'm not talking odor). I told Theuer that if there be poop, one should press the poop charges to the fullest extent. Again NO POOP.

Judge Silver will put a certain end to this. My guess: She will not give the company a pass on a possible hybrid DFR. You should read the transcripts and pay close attention to what the company lawyer says about the Nicolau seniority list. You will get the picture.

What buys the Nic? That is the Multi-million dollar question. Essentially a contract that is as good or superior to the current AWA contract (admittedly better than LOA93 AND what our NAC is attempting to "negotiate') + LOTS and LOTS of GREEN MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

What is your dollar amount? Mine is at least DAL current wages for fleet types. BTW, I'm not a big fan of a common wage for all fleet types: More seats, more $$...PERIOD. Also remember that the company has financially planned for $120 Million increase starting 2007 (for instance). Well that's $600,000,000.00 that the company has been "planning" on spending. Where is that $$?? That would make for a big signing bonus as far as I'm concerned (AWA pilots got a signing bonus for Contract 2004: I don't recall the $$ amount, but it was a nice piece of change).

One other thought: When a contract is signed the east pilots will have the most amount of the pie anyway. Let's say NB Captains end up with $185.00 per hour pay. They get a $60.00 per hour raise. The West NB Captain gets only $43.00 per hour raise.

The longer we wait the more money that we all lose. It's time.

 

[vetrider]

Despite many emotional and sometimes irrational events (mailing poop,

QUOTE]

Just because you mailed poop doesn't mean you need to drag the rest of us into it.