USAPA facing another challenge.....Despair

[TWA Dude]

What I don't get is this: why not join forces with us to get a quality contract?

Why ask a question you already know the answer to?

 

[BeCareful!]

You write as though you have a choice. USAPA's reason for existing and justifying the monthly 2%+ assessment check-jacking, is to provide the pilots with improvements in pay and benefits over and above management's generousity. You have not, nor will you likely in the near future, have a contract to vote down. And when you see the one that is provided and what has been gutted in order to serve DOH on the menu, you'll look back and wish an adult had been in charge for the last 3 years.

You will vote on the contract that USAPA negotiates and they feel doing nothing and charging outrageous dues for it is better than negotiating. I would be willing to bet someday you will vote on Kirby's proposal minus many current west benefits and at LOA93 +3% with a 15 year term if you're adamant about DOH.

Dump USAPA and it's a whole nother ballgame. ALPA negotiated in good faith and was an active participant in labor relations. USAPA is all about Cleary's ego and how to find new ways to embarrass the pilot group. ALPA got the pilots some of the highest pay for equipment in the industry (albeit back in the day) and USAPA has confiscated millions from this pilot group without one thing to show for it, but missed opportunities and millions down the drain, never to be recouped.

I want a union that's more than empty bluster. I want a union that can and will provide. And that sure isn't USAPA!

Bird,

There's so much misinformation here it's tough to know where to start. Here, how about you tell us why you think the Mediated negotiations we are in right now won't produce results. Then, tell us about this "gutting" for DOH. what? Yeah, like the Nic won't cause 10000 training cycles to turn you all into captains overnight. Trust me, the company doesn't want that. OK, next, how long does it take ALPA to get a contract when the company has no incentive? My decades with ALPA says it took several years past amendable dates countless times. How long did AWA negotiate last time, the time before? OK, and outrageous dues? Those dues are what we paid ALPA, and the vast majority of pilots are much happier about the representation....both here and in Washington....we are receiving now. ALPA was, and increasingly is, a bloated joke (sorta like the Pres.)

 

[BeCareful!]

And by the way, the union's existence is NOT simply to get a contract, as you say. It also protects the careers of would-be-terminated pilots, protect the sanctity of the training department, oversee contract compliance, etc, etc. USAPA has and will continue to protect all the pilots, including you, on these fronts, and they're doing an excellent job of it. You guys sit here on FI.com 24/7 and badmouth everything USAPA, but you very obviously omit 85% of what the union is doing on behalf of all of us. Ingrate.

 

[BeCareful!]

Why ask a question you already know the answer to?

TWA Dude,

I don't have the answer to this question, and it's somewhat snide of you to imply that I do. It's an honest question, so why not take a stab at it: if the 9th says you need a contract to prove harm, so that it's ripe, then getting a contract is the only way to move back into court, prove harm, and promptly call the company for your A330 class date. The obvious bonus here is that if we all stood united....on the contract issue only....it would certainly help produce a better contract. That way, while we are tied up in court on DFRII, we'll all be making more money. Honestly, enlighten me, what am I missing?

 

[Cowboy75]

Looking at this from an outside point of view, if the USAPA leadership do not stop charging windmills, nothing will change. While what happend to teh USAir pilots is crap, it was casued by the USAir MEC trying to obtain DOH at all cost. A better and fairer SLI could have been obtained if they had actually negotiated or a more reasonable presentation for SLI been given to Nicolua. USAir reps were given numerous inputs from Nicolua that DOH was not going to float, yet they ignored his inputs (ignoring the guy with the gun that he was going to shoot you if you moved, then moving). THe same people/types that forced the DOH issue seem to still be in charge of USAPA.

With that said, the bottom line is that the Nic award is not going to go away. The sooner the East pilots see this and move on the sooner things can get fixed. Remember, next December, age 65 starts to hit USAir pilots in large numbers and instead of having a decent pay check for their last few years, they will retire with BK pay rates that have not changed for 4-6-8 years. Hell, in 10 years, a major portion of the east pilost will be retired and maybe thier replacements will be able to get things moving. Now, do you want to continue to keep the BK pay rates another 10 years? However, doing this just hurts everyone on both side, but hurts the east pilots more.

It is time for the east pilots to recognize the fight is a lost cause and move on. If they don't, they need to expect to retire under a BK pay rate. The USAir pilots need to either get rid of USAPA, or vote in new leaders that are ready to accept the Nic award and get the process moving. Only then will ANY USAir pilots (east or west) see any improvements. Remember, most of the west pilots will be still employed at USair, after most of the East pilots are forced to retire at 65. If you want to get a piece of the pie, you need to do it now, or accept you will never get any.

Just my opinion......

FNG

I feel your comments are pretty much spot on. You have a pretty good understanding of our situation and of the events leading up to the stalemate and where we find ourselves today.

Since you are an outsider, your observatiions carry a lot of weight.

 

[Cowboy75]

You guys sit here on FI.com 24/7 and badmouth everything USAPA, but you very obviously omit 85% of what the union is doing on behalf of all of us. Ingrate.

USAPA was put in place to exclude about 40% of the pilot group in the decision making process. I remember hearing something about tyranny of the majority. That is exactly what we got and USAPA is dealing with the fallout. I don't see any West pilots wearing USAPA badge backers so I would say that the comments on this board showing dissatisfaction with the union are accurate.

USAPA is glad to collect dues from us and if we don't feel we are getting fair representation, we are free to complain about it. I think it is along the lines of taxation without representation and we are dumping the tea in Boston Harbor.

The letter I posted shows dissatisfaction from an East pilot who admits he did everything in his power to get rid of the arbitrated award. He sees the futility of the efforts continuing years later. He also points out that he is not the only one who feels this way.

I expected the character assassination for him not falling in line. I applaud him for being brave enough to stand up.

 

[vetrider]

And by the way, the union's existence is NOT simply to get a contract, as you say. It also protects the careers of would-be-terminated pilots, protect the sanctity of the training department, oversee contract compliance, etc, etc. USAPA has and will continue to protect all the pilots, including you, on these fronts, and they're doing an excellent job of it. You guys sit here on FI.com 24/7 and badmouth everything USAPA, but you very obviously omit 85% of what the union is doing on behalf of all of us. Ingrate.

So pursuing RICO charges against regular line joes for two years over such high crimes as web posts is 'protecting' all pilots? Ingrates my ass.

 

[TWA Dude]

Here, how about you tell us why you think the Mediated negotiations we are in right now won't produce results.

When the NAC passes the USAPA wet-dream list the company will say they won't touch it. Reference the ongoing litigation for declaratory judgment.

Then, tell us about this "gutting" for DOH. what? Yeah, like the Nic won't cause 10000 training cycles to turn you all into captains overnight. Trust me, the company doesn't want that.

Allow me to refresh your memory: the company already accepted the Nic list. The no-bump no-flush provision means no 10000 training cycles.

What I don't get is this: why not join forces with us to get a quality contract?

Okay, I'll answer. We can't join together when we reject part of what the NAC is trying to get. It's that simple. USAPA is violating its DFR and we won't abet it.

 

[Guppiedriver]

What I don't get is this: why not join forces with us to get a quality contract? If you're so *&^%$%$# sure you'll win "DFRII" then it seems to me the fastest way to get that thing filed is with a joint contract that "harms" you. Jesus, let's just move forward. Not even the bed wetting Lance can make east pilots drop their swords, so picket with us and start walking the walk toward a contract. Then, you get to sue again! Hoooya!

I've got a simper idea and it will produce results in a more timely fashion. USAPA needs to accept the Nic, dig up the already TA'ed sections of the contract that ALPA negotiated (80 % complete), and then hit Management up with the Kirby proposal + 10%.

Your way requires too much time. USAPA only has 8 sections TA'ed and we would still have to wait for the declaratory judgment to run its course. Then we would be back in court for a few more years, while our new contract sits on a shelf with the word "injunction" stamped across the front page.

 

[Cowboy75]

I've got a simper idea and it will produce results in a more timely fashion. USAPA needs to accept the Nic, dig up the already TA'ed sections of the contract that ALPA negotiated (80 % complete), and then hit Management up with the Kirby proposal + 10%.

Sounds like a good idea to me. That's how the big boys do it. Too bad we have an association of amateurs running a so-called union.

 

[Jetjockey]

What??? No St. Nic post? Someone check the missing persons report.

 

[Cowboy75]

What??? No St. Nic post? Someone check the missing persons report.

He's in the Usapian spin room.