USAJet Unionized

[Xfr8dog]

Rumor has it that 80% of the pilots and mechanics have turned in thier union cards saying "yes" they would vote a union in. (This being the UAW) The paperwork has already been filed with the NLRB so it goes to vote in about 4-6 weeks.

For those of you who may not know USAJet operates DA-20's on demand under part 135 and DC-9's under part 121 also on demand. Recently we were approved for passenger ops on 2 DC-9s. I'd like to hear anyone chime in as to what they think a union can do for a company like ours.

I have always been very anti-union just on principle. I have never worked under a union and am just hoping that they dont screw up a great company.

 

[Spencer]

Exactly what "principle" are you referring to when you say you are very anti-union?

 

[pilotyip]

Teamsters Tried

Teamsters tried back in 1997, from what I had heard, I think ALPA got more write ins than the Teamsters got votes, and those combined did not equal the non-votes, alot of Ex Zantopers were not big supporters of the union effort. Nothing is a sure thing, except change, taxes, and death.

 

[GogglesPisano]

[
I have always been very anti-union just on principle. I have never worked under a union and am just hoping that they dont screw up a great company. [/B]

Haven't spent much time in the airline biz, I see.

 

[ExecJetCA]

Disregard Xfr8dog

Disregard Xfr8dog, I heard he is the resident *** guy at USA Jet. Xfr8dog you need to get out of this business and lay off the booze...A$$Hole.

 

[Spencer]

I'd like to make one thing clear. Bad business plans make or break a company, not unions. The company mentioned Zantop and Grand Aire. If you follow their logic that unions make or break the company then unions must be good. UPS, FEDEX, Airborne, Kalitta all have unions and are surviving and Reliant didn't have a union and failed. Kittyhawk went bankrupt but now they are ALPA and out of bankruptcy. The truth is unions force companies to adapt and change the way they treat employees. Poorly run companies will go out of business with or without a union.

 

[Xfr8dog]

Goggles that was pretty vague... i havent been in the industry long since i dont realize that unions are such wonderful things? or ... uh. clarify please?

ExecJetCA... HAHAHA. i didnt realize i'd made an enemy in the business. want to shoot me a PM and tell me who you are? Also what does the "resident *** guy" mean? geez you sound bitter!

I try to start a conversation about the possible pros and cons of a union at a company like USAJet and get no intelligent response (other than from PilotYip and Spencer) hmm. thanks anyway guys... i guess.

 

[goastar]

" I have never worked under a union and am just hoping that they dont screw up a great company."


80% of people don't usually turn in union cards if there is not a perceived problem.

If you change nothing in the operations or pay, it might be good to at least get some scope/ successorship language in the event your company ever decides to merge. You might want talk to an old Challenge air cargo guy what a scope/ successorship clause might have done for them when UPS purchased them and shove them out on the street.

I do believe that in the case of a union the good does out way the bad.

 

[Xfr8dog]

ok, can you tell me what scope/succesorship is? sounds kind of like a board game about mouthwash...

 

[pilotyip]

Union maybe, maybe not

A union is not the answer to every employees concern, if a union is voted in at USA Jet it may or may not be a good deal, look at the posts on this board with pilots complaining about how there union did this to them or did not support them on this issue. I have belonged to two union airlines as stated before and they never did anything for me except take money out of my pay check. Including my last check after the company announced it as going out of business. No help after the lay off in finding another job, no help in finding aditional training to help me get another job. After the shut down, Zantop eleted not to go out of busines and the Teamsters reopened their contract and gave the company so many consessions, that a 1st DA-20 Capt job at USA Jet paid more and had more days off than an Electra Capt in a union company. We have pilots talking about if we get a union we will have every holiday off at home like the office workers, wake up DAL, AA, UL all work on the holidays, senority dictates who gets what days off. When you bid senior F/O to jr Capt you go from good days off to a schedule that you get stuck with becasue it is left over, it was your choice to move seats, not something the company did to you. Look at the posts about ALPA over a Spirit, company ignoring the contract and doing kinda as it pleases, with the fillings against the company building up. Then there is the UAW who got a contract with the big three, no pay increase except lump sum, increase in medical co-pay, a go along to get along approach to keep collecting those dues. Watch out what you ask for, you may get it. In defense of unions 40 years ago they made changes in the workplace, like Medical, vision, dental, these have benefited all union and non-union employees alike. But the glory days are over, the only sector with union growth in the past 30 years in the Gov't sector, where they do not work with real money, they steal it from you with increased taxes, unlike the private sector where you have choice on where you spend your money. There must be a reason union membership is declining in the private sector

 

[Timebuilder]

If you are this ignorant, then maybe you deserve whatever any company rams up your *$#. Educate yourself, or you'll have no one to blame for your problems but yourself.

Here's you chance, Mr. Conroy, give him some education.

I've worked under three unions, one under the RLA. The pros were pay and benefits, along with a structure for promotions. When the company was done with you, the union did nothing.

Paid a lot of dues, though.

I'll probably have to join SAG in the next year. Might be worth it, in pay and benefits. Maybe not.

 

[Xfr8dog]

Exec, Flip...

Oh man.. you two. (Exec and Flip) I post a question/debate starter and i get guys like you...




Disregard Xfr8dog, I heard he is the resident *** guy at USA Jet.
Xfr8dog you need to get out of this business and lay off the booze...A$$Hole.

-ExecJetCA


If you are this ignorant, then maybe you deserve whatever any company rams up your *$#. Educate yourself, or you'll have no one to blame for your problems but yourself. Of course, like everyone else here, I'm sure you'll find someone to point fingers at and say it's their fault.

-Flip Conroy


Do I know you two anonymous posters? Will i ever? Nope! Didn't think so. ExecJetCA STILL hasn't responded to me and i doubt he ever will. Flip... i asked a question in a (humorous?) way, "what's Scope/Successorship"... thats it. Just a question. But you say im ignorant and deserve whats coming to me. Who sounds ignorant here?

And who's pointing fingers? I'm asking questions before this thing goes to a vote... leave your anger and frustration at home if you have nothing useful to add!

 

[Spencer]

While what pilot yip said has some merits he failed to mention the things unions can do for you. Like fair and consistent treatment of ALL pilots, not the ones who are in the good graces of the company. Days off that you can actually plan something on instead of guessing whether or not you'll make it home. Establish payscales that don't change every 3 months. Having seniority actually count for something instead of laying guys off randomly and recalling the ones they want. Not being threatened to be fired at the drop of a hat. The list goes on but you get the idea.

If you think a union is going to get tons of money you'd be mistaken. It will, however, give you some rules you can count on and some much needed consistency in your life.

 

[wingnutt]

casual observer here, not pot stirring, just wondering...

If you think a union is going to get tons of money you'd be mistaken. It will, however, give you some rules you can count on and some much needed consistency in your life.

...but can that really be had in the on-demand world? is there any other on-demand operator that uses a union successfully? my impression thus far is/has been that USA has a pretty decent system down, is this not the case?

 

[Timebuilder]

I received a PM about my post, so I'll put the answer here, so more than one person can learn from it.

The RLA is the Railway Labor Act. It is a group of ideas approved on the federal level that covers some union operations and structures. Most of the railroad unions, like the UTU, BRS, and maybe eight or ten others all fall under this provision. When air transport unions were formed, they based themselves around this successful rail union model, and fall under the same provisions. That's the short explanation. I was a member of the BRS, or Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen, a craft union that maintains signals, switches, grade crossings, and special rail detection equipment, and AFTRA (see below) and also the United Tile, Rubber, and Atomic workers.

SAG is the Screen Actors Guild, which covers acting for film, including commercials that are made on film. AFTRA is the American Federation of Radio and Television Artists, which covers radio and TV where video is the medium instead of "film".

Outside of pay, and having a contract that specifies the behavior of both parties along with a method of airing grievances, there won't be much of a change at USA jet for the average employee. If someone is being harassed, or is on someone's sh*t list, the union will have some effect. It does NOT make your life perfect or hassle free, it doesn't make you rich or make every day you go to work feel a whole lot better. It simply provides a structure for the operation other than the changing whim of management.

 

[wingnutt]

now theres a comparison...SAG/AFTRA vs. airline unions. the only thing SAG/AFTRA (now one and the same, but i think dues are still seperate) does for us is guarantee the day rate. but then again without paying the dues, you cant get a job within the US borders...hence why so many jobs are being done in Canada, just out of their jurisdiction

 

[Timebuilder]

Actually, there was a vote by SAG a few months back, and they decided, for about the sixth time, to remain a separate, "sister" union to AFTRA. Some of the members feel that SAG is the only place for "real" actors outside of Equity, and that AFTRA is a bunch of "disc jockeys". That's partially true, but not entirely.

Truth be told, SAG does a lot more than dictate the day rate, which is usually the rate for non-principal extras.

There are session fees, residuals, demo rates, and variations in rates for the difference between a wild spot, a regional media buy, or a class A national spot, which might feature James Earl Jones. Then there is the health and welfare payment made by the signatory, and the retirement plan if you do enough work in a year to qualify. In addition, SAG tracks your spot's airings to be certain that you get paid for residuals that run on TV. AFTRA does not do that for radio.

To be sure, a certain amount of work does go to Canada. The cartoon version of "X-Men" features a number of Canadian voice actors, like Venus Terzo (Jean Grey) and Meghan Black (Rogue,cute pic ). These talents work in Vancouver, near where my dad was born. Meghan did a lot of popular Canadian TV (Edgemont, for example). She's a real hard worker, and still in her teens. When she comes down here, and I think she will, she'll join SAG.

A good amount of animation graphics are done in Japan now, but the really high quality shows get voiced in LA just as they always have. Warner Brothers and Hanna-Barbera aren't going to roll over and play dead. The best people are still SAG.

There is plenty of work, in fact the majority of work in the US, that is not under SAG's umbrella. Most SAG actors work in NY, LA, and Chicago. You may see the formation of a Canadian performance union in the coming years.

At any rate, getting back to what we were saying about pilot unions: they can help you, but they are by no means a panacea. If your union is only looking out for the top one third of pilots, then you might be in trouble. It's a matter of by-laws.

 

[Spencer]

Many of the problems at USA Jet come from being an at will employee. In the past guys at USA Jet have voted with their feet. Everytime the company has cut our pay or taken days off from guys people have gone to Spirit etc... Then the company apologizes and says it made a mistake and after a while when no one has left in six months they do something else bad. The cycle continues. Now, instead of leaving and going to Spirit or the majors guys are stuck here and so they are only left with one option to make things better in their life - organize. The company has had many opportunities to make this a great place to work but has always put cost ahead of it's employees.

As for USA Jet being a non-sched that is not entirely true. We have started passenger charters in the DC-9. We have 2 DC-9s online. They want to be an airline but are still stuck in the 135 night freight on demand mentality. It is time for them to step up and act like an airline.

 

[cruxx@9]

I would like to second Spencer. From what I take from the majority of the pro union people is we just want to know what life will be like in 2 months, 6 months, a year or 2. There is NO consistency in the actions by management here. I don't hear anyone complaining about the pay, we knew the pay scale when we hired on, and there is no reason to change it now. The main complaints are days off, not more of them, just getting them. Using the senority system as something more than a list of names on the wall and fairness in disipline. I have not heard yet that the pilots are wanting the holidays off or weekends off or whatever...just a fair and straight system. PilotYip is correct in that no airline gets the holidays off for everyone, that is what the senority system is about. Most people are tired of different rules for different people, deals cut behind closed doors that sort of thing. I don't believe the union is a perfect system and only a fool would. But let's look at the track record of management as a previous post stated. Everytime there is a reason to change the policy they stick to it only as long as they have to. USA Jet is, in my opinion, the best on demand company out there. But they have to decide if they want to be a mom and pop freight dog company or an airline. Not hop between one or the other depending on the day and what meets their mood. I have yet to read anything on here that supports union or does not. That is what xfr8dog wanted to know. He had some valid questions...don't beat him...answer him.

 

[Publishers]

is

They is what they is as they say. Someone said they put cost first, which is probably why they have survived this long.

 

[cruxx@9]

Publishers,

You are right, there are times to put cost first...successful companies have to do that, there is no argue. But how much does it cost to upgrade through senority? Remember also it COSTS to retrain pilots. You would think that any company would WANT to retain experienced pilots and employees. The common response to anything said here is "you don't like it, leave" followed by a chuckle, "oh that's right, no one else is hiring."

 

[pilotyip]

Just got my flyer

The UAW claims the company will show the pilots silly videos in meetings. The UAW claims they will stop unsafe work conitions, what are they going to do? make us as safe as Grand Air , another union outfit. This is from an orgainzation that said "What is a check airman?" The UAW is not the foundation and source of all aviation safety. The same organization that is telling our pilots, it does not cost the company anything to give the DA-20 pilots more days off, sure it will not cost the company any more in payroll, but how about the cost of lost revenue because we do not have as many crews on the board any given day. How about the company gives the DA-20 pilots 30 days a month off, that would not cost anymore in payroll. It might cut down a bid on revenue needed to support payroll, but that is not a concrern of those who want to collect pilot dues. I have been there and I have paid my dues. And the UAW talks about the company being silly, give me a break.

 

[Spencer]

Sure more days off on the falcon will cost the company money, but respect and honoring days off don't. Not to mention the money it will save the company down the road by not having as much turnover as in the past. I'm sure you'll respond that the turnover has dropped considerably (I saw Healy's graph). It has to do with the industry not the excellent working conditions. (The graph dropped suddenly on 9/11 for some reason.)

On another note. The company has submitted its list of eligible voters. They include the Chief Pilot, Pilot Yip, Director of Training as well as all the corporate pilots including Marty's personal pilots on the Gulfstream. I'll laugh if the vote goes through anyways. That means they will all be part of the union. The company is using these guys as pawns. Sure hope it doesn't backfire on them

 

[pilotyip]

about pilotyip

Where will you find pilotyip's name in any management position? check your GOM, he does not have the power to hire or fire, he sets up interviews, and recommends the final decision is made by the DO, other line pilots besides pilotyip have ben involved in this recommendation process. Pilotyip makes much less than most pilots of his senority. And BTW Spencer, you confirmed the UAW puts out BS when they told pilots it would not cost the company more money to give more days off. That is only one example. The turnover graphs shown by Chris can not be displayed by Ameristar, or Cherry Air, so something must be going right at USA Jet. The turn over prior to 9-11, was a result of over hiring in late 2000 and early 2001. The lay off in May of 01 caused pilots to bail for the wrong reasons, over half of those who bailed called the company and asked if they could get their jobs back, if this is a bad place to work why did they want to come back. Why is the company getting a resume from a former USA Jet pilot who is 474 Capt and would be happy to come back to USA Jet as a DA-20 F/O because of the quality of life? Nothing is sure thing until it is over, some will win some will loose and no one can predict what it will look like after the battle. Then may come the dues, the acessments, special fees, and levies. I am a former union member I have seen them at work. As stated before I have paid my dues I do not want to pay them again. Unions have done nothing for me.

 

[Spencer]

Pilotyip

Well apparently you have taken offense to my posting. I didn't see anything in my post that was derrogatory towards you. I simply stated that you were on the list of eligible voters. As for the comments about the company using pilots as pawns, that was directed towards the guys who weren't aware they were even on the list. ie)Gulfstream pilots etc...

 

[Publishers]

like it

Like it or not, none of the carriers like this have the numbers to be of much worth to any national union. These unions like the Teamsters and UAW are not pilot oriented, look for where they can get money just like any business. To think that they are going to provide any real service for the level of dues they will get from you is crazy.

This is the problem the regionals have with their unions where there is conflict with ALPA. Numbers make the game.

 

[cruxx@9]

The union is already working for us

Do I think the union is the end all? No. Do I think the union will fix all the problems? NO. BUT, I have already seen the union fix some problems. Now, just looking at where I was screwed out of a DC9 skipper position, noone can fix, not even the union. What's done is done. When I came to USA Jet I thought I was working for an airline, not a cleaned up version of Ameristar....that was my mistake. Anyway, things have changed a bit. They have implemented a decent rotation for the board that seems to be working well. All it took was some prior planning on operations part and they spend a little money to move the crews around. Nobody can tell me that would have happened if it wasn't for the rumblings of the UAW. I have heard that unions are dinosaurs, that there are no need for them in the present day work force. Hmmmm, I guess that is not the case eh. Does anyone honestly believe if it wasn't for these developments that we would have the attention of management? They say, "why didn't you come to me earlier so we could have fixed this." You are telling me that they didn't know it was just the wrong thing to do by taking away all days off? That slanting the bidding system against senior pilots was the wrong thing to do? Just overall teatment of their workers?
Granted we are employees, but come on now...they treat thier pets better. So are unions really that far off, is there a reason that they still exist. I never been anti union as my dad is union, but I have never really seen a need for one until the past eight months. Is this what it takes just to "get thier attention."

I am concerned either way of the vote. There are hidden things the UAW is not telling us I'm sure, I don't trust everything they say as fact. There is still the fear of the unknown, of what happens next. But, I am more worried of what the company will do if the vote is turned down. They say that we have thier attention, that these things will not happen in the future, just like years ago, things seemed to change. If it goes down, how long before we go back to the old way of doing things. Everybody seems to be backed into a corner here. I would like to believe a contract would end alot of constant policy change, favoritism that sort of thing and give us something we can count on from year to year. If that is all that comes out of it, it'll make life easier here, knowing what I can count on from day to day and not only dealing with the constant change of this business, which is something I knew when I signed up, but not dealing with the constant change of the company...something I didn't count on when I signed up. Now, is it going to be safer...I don't think that was a big concern before or later...I believe this company is about as safe as a non sked can be.

It would have been nice if things didn't have to get this far due to lack of concern for people among mid level and upper level management. Spencer PM me if you can.

 

[pilotyip]

I don't understand

So few people bid the DC-9 in the summer of 2002, we had to go out on the street and hire DC-9 guys off of the street. If any of the guys senior to the the Junior DC-9 Capt (Mr. P) had bid the DC-9 in the summer 2002 they would all be Captains right now, can some tell me why no one bid it? Cruxx your concerns about the unknown of this process are valid, you should consider giving the company one more year, and if they go back to their old ways, the UAW would be in by a landslide. i.e. Zantop in 1996. Do you still drink beer if someone else is buying?

 

[cruxx@9]

I drink beer no matter who's buying....but for some reason it tastes better when you buy!

 

[cruxx@9]

If any of the guys senior to the the Junior DC-9 Capt (Mr. P) had bid the DC-9 in the summer 2002 they would all be Captains right now, can some tell me why no one bid it?


I did Mr. P's FO IOE in the Falcon. The reason I did'nt bid the DC9 is because the policy changed (something the union will put to an end). I did bid, and was awarded the Mr. P's slot in the DC9, however, after meeting with management, I was pursuaded to postpone going the DC9 because I was told "we will take care of you" if you help us out. I was taken care of all right. When the next bid came out, the rules had changed and most of the other senior pilots did not want to take the pay cut. Not to mention the fact that they where worried about losing their jobs because the last time USA Jet had a pilot reduction, it was based on seat not seniority. The decison by me and most of the senior falcon Captains not to bid the DC9 was based on fear of the company's commitment to loyal employees. Why would I take a huge pay cut to do the same job when a few months earlier the policy was different. Look, the simple fact is, the policies change on a daily basis, we were waiting for the policy to change back to the origional one we were promised when we took the job. I find it very interesting how the policy has again changed with the union threat looming.

Still waiting for that beer.