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UsAirways E190 Upgrades

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MCDU said:
Yo numb nuts. Delta had Express written on their 737 back in 2000. I guess that means they were not mainline pilots flying Delta Express.

M
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St. Nic said:
Great point!
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You two make a great couple. Do I hear wedding bells?

LearLove said:
You missed my point entirely. So I'll dumb it down for you.

Let's go ahead and paint express on the whole fleet, A330 to E190, then we can all work for 50% less. Get the point now?
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I understood you just fine so let me counter with a simplified response that perhaps YOU can comprehend. It doesn't really matter what livery the aircraft is painted in. What matters is who do the pilots WORK for. If the aircraft looks like all the others parked at all the adjacent gates but there is a "Operated by _____" sticker or stamp visible on the aircraft, the pilots are NOT flying for the mainline carrier. Scream, shout, and pound your chest all you want but flying for MDA was NOT flying for USAir. When East/West merger process began, it was "mainline" plus "mainline", period. The beef the MDA guys seem to have is nobody went to bat for them regarding a flow through that had evidently been promised. I agree, that sucks and they (you?) got screwed.

1) The America West pilots did not screw you. Perhaps the Doug or Scott did, but the West didn't.
2) It wasn't the West pilots responsibility to go to bat for you, particularly in light of the fact the East was trying advance a list with MDA pilots on it solely as a means to advance their own seniority interests.

I'm surprised the MDA pilot's frustrations aren't aimed at the East pilots who seem to have subsequently failed to demonstrate even a shred of support or unity after MDA was sold off. Maybe I miss read the entire situation...except the part about MDA being the "Embrier Division" of USAir. That's pure folly.

With that said, I'm a big advocate of in-house regional carriers with a guaranteed flow through because I think it's a win-win for everyone involved.
 
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get2flyin said:
Scream, shout, and pound your chest all you want but flying for MDA was NOT flying for USAir. When East/West merger process began, it was "mainline" plus "mainline", period. The beef the MDA guys seem to have is nobody went to bat for them regarding a flow through that had evidently been promised. I agree, that sucks and they (you?) got screwed.


I'm surprised the MDA pilot's frustrations aren't aimed at the East pilots who seem to have subsequently failed to demonstrate even a shred of support or unity after MDA was sold off. Maybe I miss read the entire situation...except the part about MDA being the "Embrier Division" of USAir. That's pure folly.

With that said, I'm a big advocate of in-house regional carriers with a guaranteed flow through because I think it's a win-win for everyone involved.
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I don't think you understand what happened there... MDA was ALWAYS US Airways. All the MDA pilots were on the US Airways seniority list AND they still are.The pilots that came there under a "flow-thru" were placed on the mainline list and they still hold their positions on that list. They range from 190 Captains to FO's on the 330 all they way down to the 190 (by choice of course). I think the flow-thru guys at MDA are happy to be where they are. They knew what they were getting into when they left their wholly owned carrier. The rub is that even though they were officially on the US Airways mainline seniority list, the West tried to have them removed. With no flowback provisions, that would have essentially meant getting fired with no job. The US Airways MEC certainly made sure they were protected...
 
ALGFLYR said:
The rub is that even though they were officially on the US Airways mainline seniority list, the West tried to have them removed.
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Let's just make something clear here: we're talking about seniority integration arguments before an arbitrator. Nobody tried to get anybody terminated. In light of the upcoming SLI arbitration with the AA pilots everybody needs to get some thicker skin because a lot of infuriating things are going to be stated there.

It's 100% the East's fault we'll be entering this process a divided group so get ready to choke on that too.
 
TWA Dude said:
Let's just make something clear here: we're talking about seniority integration arguments before an arbitrator. Nobody tried to get anybody terminated. In light of the upcoming SLI arbitration with the AA pilots everybody needs to get some thicker skin because a lot of infuriating things are going to be stated there.

It's 100% the East's fault we'll be entering this process a divided group so get ready to choke on that too.
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Horse hockey!!!! You seem to forget it was the west that stormed out of negotiations at Why River. You seem to gloss over the fact the west has sued there own union! You need to figure who is to really blame here
 
WSurf said:
???? Didn't it say operated by Mid-Atlantic? Mid-Atlantic became the 4th wholly own and put under the SSO along with PDT,ALG, PSA.
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No, the original plan was for MDA to become a Wholly Owned, but that never happened. do you remember when the whole thing was shut down in the beginning for a few months? If you do, that was when the FAA put the brakes on the WOed thing. Airways was left with the decision to either get a new operating certificate for the proposed MDA or keep it US Airways, they took the easy way and left MDA on the Airways certificate.
It absolutely said operated by US Airways by the front door, as that evidence was used to prove who MDA really was.
 
TWA Dude said:
Let's just make something clear here: we're talking about seniority integration arguments before an arbitrator. Nobody tried to get anybody terminated. In light of the upcoming SLI arbitration with the AA pilots everybody needs to get some thicker skin because a lot of infuriating things are going to be stated there.

It's 100% the East's fault we'll be entering this process a divided group so get ready to choke on that too.
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No that is not the case, I posted a quote from Nicolau in this very thread. The West did try and have those pilots removed.
That is why it is so disgusting to me, we all expect to have the opposition argue how they should be senior, this went way above that.

"It is the position of the America West pilots that these pilots do not belong on the list"
Nicolau
 
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FR8mastr said:
No, the original plan was for MDA to become a Wholly Owned, but that never happened. do you remember when the whole thing was shut down in the beginning for a few months? If you do, that was when the FAA put the brakes on the WOed thing. Airways was left with the decision to either get a new operating certificate for the proposed MDA or keep it US Airways, they took the easy way and left MDA on the Airways certificate.
It absolutely said operated by US Airways by the front door, as that evidence was used to prove who MDA really was.
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Didn't know that. Thanks
 
FR8mastr said:
No, the original plan was for MDA to become a Wholly Owned, but that never happened. do you remember when the whole thing was shut down in the beginning for a few months? If you do, that was when the FAA put the brakes on the WOed thing. Airways was left with the decision to either get a new operating certificate for the proposed MDA or keep it US Airways, they took the easy way and left MDA on the Airways certificate.
It absolutely said operated by US Airways by the front door, as that evidence was used to prove who MDA really was.
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Weren't they trying to use the Patomic certificate they had lying around from the AAA/UAL and DC Air debacle? I could be wrong. I seem to remember Patomic operating 2 of Alleghenys dhc8's in late 01 or early 02.

I think the Patomic name still appears on the "insurance" bulletin we get for the blue binder ever spring.
 
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St. Nic said:
Horse hockey!!!! You seem to forget it was the west that stormed out of negotiations at Why River. You seem to gloss over the fact the west has sued there own union! You need to figure who is to really blame here
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Are you seriously pleading THIS was the beginning? Dude, you're more screwed up than I give you credit for? Back up a bit and tell everyone who "walked out" first. The EAST during JCBA negotiations and went to form ustupa!
 
Wye River was a post NIC attempt to get the West to move off the NIC, did not happen and was a failure just like Denver, Rice Comm. and other Prater attempts to lead from behind.
 
Carl S. said:
Wye River was a post NIC attempt to get the West to move off the NIC, did not happen and was a failure just like Denver, Rice Comm. and other Prater attempts to lead from behind.
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From what I have been told by a participant, Wye River wasn't even a case of "Would you be willing to come off the Nic a little?". It was more like, "Come on guys, you need to accept DOH". Because there was an unwillingness to talk about anything other than DOH, there wasn't really anything to "negotiate".

This continues today with, "DOH with conditions and restrictions"......which is still DOH.
 
get2flyin said:
From what I have been told by a participant, Wye River wasn't even a case of "Would you be willing to come off the Nic a little?". It was more like, "Come on guys, you need to accept DOH". Because there was an unwillingness to talk about anything other than DOH, there wasn't really anything to "negotiate".

This continues today with, "DOH with conditions and restrictions"......which is still DOH.
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You were given very bad information. Actually the Nic was offered to the West. They turned it down! The East had a lot of attrition coming and wanted to capture some of that for their pilots. They actually offered to accept and implement the Nic with the condition of a fence to allow the East to capture their attrition for a defined time. The West would have nothing to do with it. They wanted everything right then.

The funny thing, is that the fence that was proposed would have just expired. So all the movement on the East right now, would have benefited the West pilots on the very bid that came out today under a NIC list to fill vacancies.

The East attrition was captured by the East pilots due to the stalemate currently in effect. Just think, if the West had agreed, they would have their pilots moving into the open A330 Captain slots that just seem to keep coming...

If we offered the West right now that we would implement the Nic today and use it for the bid that just came out, do you think they would take it? Of course they would. And they actually had that offered to them! But greed got in the way, and the East will continue to take the upgrades...

I'm not sure they will like what is behind door number 3... It's the APA, and I think the West is finally realizing they are not what they seemed to be...

Enjoy PHX...
 
ALGFLYR, you seem very "matter-of-fact" about how things occurred. Were you there or are you just repeating what you heard?
 

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