UsAirways and EMB-190

[fatazz]

US Airways pilots give tentative nod to Embraer 190s

Tuesday October 4, 2005 US Airways pilots, with an eye on JetBlue, reached a tentative agreement with the airline to operate the Embraer 190 as part of mainline service at a rate that will make the jets competitive with the low-cost carrier that launched the 100-seater."We agreed on a pay rate as well as a restriction to fly only as mainline," Jack Stephan, a spokesperson for the US Airways pilots, told ATWOnline. "That one issue was sent out for member ratification with a strong endorsement to ratify the agreement."
The decision was part of an overall transition agreement between the pilot groups at America West and US Airways, both of which are represented by the Air Line Pilots Assn., as well as management, Stephan explained. The US Airways scope clause prohibited the operation of aircraft with more than 70 seats by Regional partners, but at one point the pilots agreed to allow 190 operations at the now-defunct MidAtlantic division although no 190 orders ever were placed, he said. The Embraer 170 flying originally planned for MidAtlantic has been shifted to partner Republic Airways and the aircraft sold to the independent airline.
"I think the world has changed since we first allowed the 190s to be flown at MidAtlantic," said Stephan. "There was permission to fly them outside the mainline. We had a chance to revisit that issue. It became clear that it was in the best interest of our pilot groups that the airplane not be flown anywhere but the mainline." He said the pilots tied the pay scale for the 190 to the size of the aircraft and the revenue it could generate.
"All we had to do was to point to JetBlue. They don't have a separate division," he noted. "If you are talking seat-mile costs, we can give you a competitive rate and let you fly that on the mainline. I think it's an improvement over what we had."
by Sandra Arnoult

 

[xjlifer]

Hope the rate is better than the Rate Delta Managment has proposed for their 190's

 

[kngarthur]

Hope the rate is better than the Rate Delta Managment has proposed for their 190's

They should probably just let Republic do those routes, so they can concentrate on International.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Thank God!! Keep the mainline aircraft at mainline!

 

[ex j-41]

Think that ALPA has finally realized the huge mistake that they made?

I guess with all the dues they have collected they feel that maybe it is
time they work for the ones that give them their paycheck.

 

[LearLove]

yes its good to keep them at mainline, however the agreement also has some snags in it that I come to learn from talking to mainline guys. Some are voting no some are yes. I'm voting yes, but I fully understand where the no guys are comming from.

Also of course voting no doesn't mean the they don't want the 190's at mainline it just means they don't want them under thoes terms. The feeling is around here that it will pass, but like I said there are some deeper issues and I fully understand where some of these guys with 15 or 20+ years are comming from on the no side.

 

[General Lee]

They should probably just let Republic do those routes, so they can concentrate on International.

What? Go back to your C172. We are flying 100 seaters right now on the old 732s. We won't give that up. Yeah, maybe all domestic flying should be flown by newly graduated UNDies and Empty Nipple grads......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[avrodriver]

The Embraer 170 flying originally planned for MidAtlantic has been shifted to partner Republic Airways and the aircraft sold to the independent airline.

MidAtlantic is offically defunct?? Was the final word finally passed on this or is there still an ongoing battle? Fricken robbery..........

AD

 

[tuna pimp]

Hope the rate is better than the Rate Delta Managment has proposed for their 190's

What is DL proposing? How much lower is it than the 737-200?

 

[vclean]

They should probably just let Republic do those routes, so they can concentrate on International.

Yet another that doesn't see the big picture.

 

[viper548]

They should probably just let Republic do those routes, so they can concentrate on International.

Go to school junior

 

[synchoff]

Thank God!! Keep the mainline aircraft at mainline!

Uh, if they're going to pay MAINLINE pilots less than current regional rates, what's the point?

Mesa's current top CRJ900 CA payscale beats JetBlue's CA E-190. And the UsAir protocol states that it will be a payscale competitive with JetBlue.

 

[synchoff]

(double post)

 

[Full of LUV]

Is it not obvious????

Uh, if they're going to pay MAINLINE pilots less than current regional rates, what's the point?

Mesa's current top CRJ900 CA payscale beats JetBlue's CA E-190. And the UsAir protocol states that it will be a payscale competitive with JetBlue.

Well, because at a regional, that is the TOP of the career path, finito, nothing bigger. At the majors it will be the ENTRY point, something that the regionals used to be before everyone started thinking of them as alternate LCC's and career airlines. Pilots willing to work for half wages for a chance to fly shiny jets for the rest of their careers have infiltrated the regionals.
Before, a regional pilot would get their hours and experience and move on to a major, but after infiltration, they have gotten lazy and a sense of entitlement. I remember when regionals were arguing that they were indeed Majors because of their revenue, and thinking, what's the point? You can call Mesa a major airline, but we all know it survives off of the marketing and feed of the real majors, end of sentence!

 

[doug_or]

Mesa's current top CRJ900 CA payscale beats JetBlue's CA E-190. And the UsAir protocol states that it will be a payscale competitive with JetBlue.

Not really, with the OT bonus the jetblue guys get it would be about equal at the 20 year level, and any lower senority the jetblue rates are higher per hour. More to the point, how many 20 year Mesa captains are there?

Plus, what he said ^

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Uh, if they're going to pay MAINLINE pilots less than current regional rates, what's the point?

Mesa's current top CRJ900 CA payscale beats JetBlue's CA E-190. And the UsAir protocol states that it will be a payscale competitive with JetBlue.

They need to be at mainline...period. Mainline pilots have a bigger view of this industry and the drain it is circling versus the majority of the "I wanna 2-year upgrade" regional pilots.

 

[synchoff]

First off, if offered a job at JetBlue, I'd go in a heartbeat.

Mesa also has OT, so our a 20yr CA could pull in $150 bucks an hour.

As for a sense of entitlement - - that's EXACTLY the mentality of mainline pilots, and I say F them. Look where it got them.

Regionals are NOT full of "2 year I wanna upgrade in a shinny jet" pilots anymore. They are career airlines, and I'll be damned if I'm going to apologize for fighting for salaries and QOL that come with larger aircrafts. I'm not gonna happily take it up the tailpipe for legacy carriers either, just because their name is on the side of my plane this week.

They want us at the regionals to give it all up for them. For years, our lower wages subsidized their higher wages and fancy comforatable lifestyle's (by providing a heck of a service at a comparatively cheap rate, making majors big $$$ for their pilots to pad their pockets with). Now they're in hock, and they want the regionals to give up planes (for their furloughees to fly), routes, and growth opportunites that they DIDN'T want when times were fat . . . and they're willing to do it at OUR lower wages and QOL.

They're hypocrates, pure and simple. No legacy carrier pilot even PRETENDS to give a damn about regionals . . . and I feel exactly the same about them.

 

[Full of LUV]

Career Airlines????

First off, if offered a job at JetBlue, I'd go in a heartbeat.

Mesa also has OT, so our a 20yr CA could pull in $150 bucks an hour.

As for a sense of entitlement - - that's EXACTLY the mentality of mainline pilots, and I say F them. Look where it got them.

Regionals are NOT full of "2 year I wanna upgrade in a shinny jet" pilots anymore. They are career airlines, and I'll be danged if I'm going to apologize for fighting for salaries and QOL that come with larger aircrafts. I'm not gonna happily take it up the tailpipe for legacy carriers either, just because their name is on the side of my plane this week.

They want us at the regionals to give it all up for them. For years, our lower wages subsidized their higher wages and fancy comforatable lifestyle's (by providing a heck of a service at a comparatively cheap rate, making majors big $$$ for their pilots to pad their pockets with). Now they're in hock, and they want the regionals to give up planes (for their furloughees to fly), routes, and growth opportunites that they DIDN'T want when times were fat . . . and they're willing to do it at OUR lower wages and QOL.

They're hypocrates, pure and simple. No legacy carrier pilot even PRETENDS to give a dang about regionals . . . and I feel exactly the same about them.

How ironic that you call the major airline pilots hypocrites (well sort of) when you claim that the regionals are now "career airlines" in the second sentence that says you would leave for the major "de jeur" ie Jetblue, if offered the opportunity.
So which is it, do you aspire to work for a "major" or be a Mesa Captain with 20 years of service working OT to make $150 an hour that you claim. Hell, thats better than what the JB will be making on the 190, so why go there????? Oh I see, the regionals are good for You while you work there, then when a real job comes by, sayonara! I see!

 

[synchoff]

What is a "major"? It used to be defined as airlines who did more than a Billion bucks of business a year . . . .and by that measure, many "regionals" qualify. The regionals are certainly better at turning a regular profit. The line is blurring, so the "real majors" can just kiss by shinny white "cheek" when they presume to tell me how much I can make and what I can fly because they somehow think they're better pilots or some such nonsense.


Mesa's not so bad -- and I'd be content to work here the rest of my flying career. But money's not everything. JetBlue sounds better, because they're not fully of whinners complaining about every little perceived slight from management. And they're non-ALPA. And I'd like to fly an Airbus, which will never happen at Mesa because lovely ALPA will never allow it (for my own good, of course - - how condesending is that -- it's for THEIR own good, and they don't have the balls to come out and say it) Plus, I'd like to wear a blue shirt instead of a white one.

But United, Delta, Northwest . . . no thanks.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

What is a "major"? It used to be defined as airlines who did more than a Billion bucks of business a year . . . .and by that measure, many "regionals" qualify.

All of you dumbsh!ts that like to believe you work for a major because they earned a "Billion Bucks" need to take your sorry asses back to airliners.net.

 

[Quack]

Mesa 4 life...yea right!

Synchoff...you have got to be kidding me! You'd be happy staying Mesa for the rest of your god forsaken life...PLEEEAASSEEE! That's great you like where you're at, but the rest of us aren't willing to settle for those terms. The 90 seat aircraft belong at the Mainline level, plain and simple. The only way this can happen, however, is if the Big Boyz at ALPA pull down the silver lining and actually step up and refuse 90 seaters to be flown by regionals.

 

[WSurf]

Word!!!!!!!

 

[dav8or]

What is a "major"? It used to be defined as airlines who did more than a Billion bucks of business a year . . . ..

A major airline is defined as an airline in bankruptcy with pilots furloughed due to greedy mismanagement by corporate executives who plan on being in the industry just long enough to bleed the company for their needs.

 

[FR8mastr]

What is a "major"? It used to be defined as airlines who did more than a Billion bucks of business a year . . . .and by that measure, many "regionals" qualify. The regionals are certainly better at turning a regular profit.

Its not that hard to "turn a profit" when you operate at cost plus. The regional partner profit is directly sucking the life out of the major that has them proped up. that is not the pilots fault other than alpa allowing it to happen, it is the fault of short sighted greedy "lets make the stock price look good today at any cost" attitude of management that only cares about their next retention bonus and in reality could give a rats A$$ about the airline or anyone that works there.

 

[Full of LUV]

At least your honest!!!

What is a "major"? It used to be defined as airlines who did more than a Billion bucks of business a year . . . .and by that measure, many "regionals" qualify. The regionals are certainly better at turning a regular profit. The line is blurring, so the "real majors" can just kiss by shinny white "cheek" when they presume to tell me how much I can make and what I can fly because they somehow think they're better pilots or some such nonsense.


Mesa's not so bad -- and I'd be content to work here the rest of my flying career. But money's not everything. JetBlue sounds better, because they're not fully of whinners complaining about every little perceived slight from management. And they're non-ALPA. And I'd like to fly an Airbus, which will never happen at Mesa because lovely ALPA will never allow it (for my own good, of course - - how condesending is that -- it's for THEIR own good, and they don't have the balls to come out and say it) Plus, I'd like to wear a blue shirt instead of a white one.

But United, Delta, Northwest . . . no thanks.

Synchoff,
I won't fault you for being honest, in fact if more people just did what they said, this world would be different, most say one thing and do another.
Anyway, your logic does not compute because as long as their is the seniority system in this profession, you will always be able to whipsawed against an newer cheaper entity.
OBTW, I know you idolize JB right now, but every pilot group is content and happy when upgrades come fast and growth is forecast, in my experience, the real pessimists don't start to show until the airline is shrinking.
Do you not see that although you love it at Mesa and that even in your 10th year of your 30 year career as a captain of a small shiny jet, you could be undercut in a moments notice by the newest next generation of competition. Last I checked UND and Embry Riddle, Comair Acadamey havn't shut down, it will only be a matter of time before enough new entrants into the labor pool before a new regional sweeps the industry with NEW equipment, NEW pilots and even lower bids for regional flying.
The way I see it, regional pilots are even in a more precarious postition than the majors (which I define as the brand name on the side of the plane, not revenue) as they have no scope or protection of future flying so they are and always will be under the threat of "lower your costs now so we can bid for this or that".
OBTW again, you can fly an airbus, look at Indy, they said "we want to be a major flying airbuses, we don't need our major airline ties anymore" , they fly airbuses, and RJ's so don't be so down about your future prospects, just convince MESA to go it alone!
Lastly, I think it is commendable that you seek to fly for Jetblue, you want to be a part of a major that has a respectable career path ahead of you, don't be ashamed!
Ciao

 

[surplus1]

I don't want to join in the quarrel of major v regional but I do have a couple of questions.

How many E-190's does U/AWA have on order?

How many E-190's does this TA say that U/AWA will order in the future?

What if they don't order any?

This TA permits an increase up to 93 of the CRJ-900 type airplane and as far as I can tell offeres no guarantee that U/AWA will buy even one E-190.

Sounds like sort of a Pyrrhic victory.

 

[nimtz]

Regionals are NOT full of "2 year I wanna upgrade in a shinny jet" pilots anymore. They are career airlines, and I'll be danged if I'm going to apologize for fighting for salaries and QOL that come with larger aircrafts.

Hey buddy let me know when any regional outside of ASA and Comair has gotten any REAL improvement in salary and QOL as a result of larger aircraft. They have gone a long way towards that "2 year shinny jet upgrade." Guess three bucks/hour for a captain goes along towards satisfying you...

 

[michael707767]

I don't want to join in the quarrel of major v regional but I do have a couple of questions.

How many E-190's does U/AWA have on order?

How many E-190's does this TA say that U/AWA will order in the future?

What if they don't order any?

.

whether or not U/AWA orders any 190s is really irrelevant. The point is the line of scope at U/AWA was held at 90 seats. That alone is a victory for the U/AWA pilots in my book.

 

[skychicken]

as much as I would like to fly a 90 seater, or a jet for that matter, it would do nothing but screw every pilot if the regionals started flying the 190's. I'm glad to see some people are stepping up and and taking a stand cause in the long run thats what needs to happen!!

 

[Full of LUV]

It's where they will go!!!

whether or not U/AWA orders any 190s is really irrelevant. The point is the line of scope at U/AWA was held at 90 seats. That alone is a victory for the U/AWA pilots in my book.

Exactly, it's knowing that if they are used in U/AWA operations, they will be used at mainline. That is the interesting and hopefully watershed moment that will stop the mainline bleeding to lower cost contract carriers. First JB, now U/AWA, etc and if any other company wants to fly it, the mainline units can now say don't look at mid atlantic or CHQ or SKW, look at the competition, they do it at mainline. It's the first step towards the "one list" you regional guys look forward to, now get out there and get hired into the future growth at a mainline, afterall, it's the same $$$$ you would make at your career regional.