USAir March bid

[steveg]

You want to have a meaningful discussion and then you post:

"little AWA, po-dunk wannabe major from the low-fare desert city of PHX, had the privilege of merging with us"

That is one of the most inflamatory and condescending posts I have seen.

Answer one question. With the East proposal, what happens when there is a furlough?

That's right, every single loss would be felt by the West crews. This is not some silly argument about who gets to upgrade where 8 years from now. It is a simple cold hard fact that ANY negative happenings at this airline would be felt purely on the West side for a long time. The east argument and proposal keeps all positive aspects of the merger, and insulates them from any negative aspects. How can anyone possibly make a logical argument about that being fair? Like it or not, this is a new airline and we are all in this together.

 

[BeCareful!]

You want to have a meaningful discussion and then you post:

"little AWA, po-dunk wannabe major from the low-fare desert city of PHX, had the privilege of merging with us"

That is one of the most inflamatory and condescending posts I have seen.

Answer one question. With the East proposal, what happens when there is a furlough?

That's right, every single loss would be felt by the West crews. This is not some silly argument about who gets to upgrade where 8 years from now. It is a simple cold hard fact that ANY negative happenings at this airline would be felt purely on the West side for a long time. The east argument and proposal keeps all positive aspects of the merger, and insulates them from any negative aspects. How can anyone possibly make a logical argument about that being fair? Like it or not, this is a new airline and we are all in this together.

No, steveg, you and your's have been far more inflammatory and condescending here in the recent past. As I've said, I've all but given up on you guys being reasonable, and your post is really no different.

Case in point, with your staple job proposal, the next furlough would be all east pilots....pilots who already took a 100% paycut to save the ship. Under our proposal, East and West would share the pain of a large scale furlough like the last one.

No matter, I'm sure you'll forever see it differently. After all, you stated "It is a simple cold hard fact that ANY negative happenings at this airline would be felt purely on the West side for a long time."

How you come up with that simple, cold, hard fact is beyond me, but I'm sure you have no shortage of very junior AWA pardners who will back you up on it.

Happy windfall, there, steveg.

 

[Hpilot]

USAir was not going out of business. USAir was in better shape then your 1980's startup airline. I had America West Capt. in my new hire class in 1994 and he said that Americas Worst was going to shut down or merged.
Americas Worst is and was a joke. I am just glad you guys merged with AAA. My worst nightmare was when every one speculated United and Americas Worst were going to merge.

Americas Worst=Bottom feeder were the turn over rate was so big, you had classes every week to fill the attrition in the late 90's.

Marty

It must really kill ya that our crappy airline has better pay and management than yours. Ha Ha.

 

[Heavy Set]

Everyone knows USAir was on the way out. They would have liquidated had AWA not come in and rescued them. It should be a percentage merger. If you are in the bottom 10% of USAir, you should be in the bottom 10% of the merged carrier. It doesn't matter if the bottom USAir guy had 17 years, he almost was unemployed and none of that would have mattered. Too bad.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Answer one question. With the East proposal, what happens when there is a furlough?

" any USAirways pilot on furlough on the date of the merged first merged bid shall be subject to furlough AHEAD of America West pilots junior to him/her for 365 days following his/her recall."

To put that more plainly, the most junior America West pilot will not be able to be furloughed until one year after the most junior USAirways pilots returns to active status.


Typhoonpilot

 

[typhoonpilot]

Everyone knows USAir was on the way out. They would have liquidated had AWA not come in and rescued them. It should be a percentage merger. If you are in the bottom 10% of USAir, you should be in the bottom 10% of the merged carrier. It doesn't matter if the bottom USAir guy had 17 years, he almost was unemployed and none of that would have mattered. Too bad.

Like I said previously, "do your homework". The failing carrier argument doesn't work with this arbitrator, this from the Flying Tiger Line/Federal Express integration:

On the other hand, I cannot accept the FEC proposal because it relies on a single criterion while minimizing Tiger's contribution to the merger and unduly exaggerating Federal's unmerged future.

Based on this Record, it's evident enough that Tiger was not a "failing" carrier, as that term is commonly understood. It is equally evident, however, that it was not markedly robust, nor the beneficiary of a sustained period of well-being. Arbitrators in prior cases have generally not found the relative weakness of one merger partner vis-a-vis the other of overwhelming significance.

Nevertheless, they have taken into account the benefits, monetary and otherwise, that pilots of a weaker carrier attain by virtue of a merger with one more stable even when, as here, it cannot be said that the more stable actually rescued the other from an imminent demise.



Typhoonpilot​

 

[steveg]

No, steveg, you and your's have been far more inflammatory and condescending here in the recent past. As I've said, I've all but given up on you guys being reasonable, and your post is really no different.

What did I say that was unreasonable? I have never put any opinion forward about the seniority stuff. Just asking (you said you wanted a reasonable discussion) how you can possibly think the dream list is fair? Not flaming, just trying to understand what color the sky is in your world.

Case in point, with your staple job proposal, the next furlough would be all east pilots....pilots who already took a 100% paycut to save the ship. Under our proposal, East and West would share the pain of a large scale furlough like the last one.

The West side has never proposed a Staple. East pilots took a %100 pay cut to save a ship that then merged with another. Again, this is a new airline like it or not. What about the pay and sacrifices that West pilots made, do you recognize that?

No matter, I'm sure you'll forever see it differently. After all, you stated "It is a simple cold hard fact that ANY negative happenings at this airline would be felt purely on the West side for a long time."

Perhaps I was not clear enough, the above was if the dream list put together by the East comes to be.


How you come up with that simple, cold, hard fact is beyond me, but I'm sure you have no shortage of very junior AWA pardners who will back you up on it.

Happy windfall, there, steveg.

Again, what windfall are you talking about? I'm more concerned about this airline than any of the other 5 I've worked at (Yeah, I've been furloughed and merged before). My progression and advancement are non-existant and pilots that are not even working at my current company are trying to get placed on a seniority list above me. Please spare me the bit about how great things will be in 10 years. I can't believe anyone in this industry would use promises about what is going to come as justification for placing one below them on a seniority list.

 

[steveg]

" any USAirways pilot on furlough on the date of the merged first merged bid shall be subject to furlough AHEAD of America West pilots junior to him/her for 365 days following his/her recall."

To put that more plainly, the most junior America West pilot will not be able to be furloughed until one year after the most junior USAirways pilots returns to active status.

You are right. Forgot about that. So the first 30-40 (as of now) furloughs will all be East guys, then the next how many will be West pilots? Go ahead, please answer this.

And then we have the subject of the CEL guys being placed ahead of how many West pilots? What about that in a furlough? Care to answer? Where are all the CEL guys that were screaming about getting dropped off the list? They just wanted to be on the list right? Would never dream of being placed ahead of West pilots?



Typhoonpilot

Entertaining this is.

 

[BeCareful!]

steveg -

I don't think you'll find too many U pilots who think our proposal is a "dream list."

Nice spin. Perhaps Fox News could use a writer like you.

Time in service is more than fair. I go over 1000 numbers down vs. DOH. But I guess you all want more from us.

 

[TWA Dude]

Unfortunately for you the AWA merger committee is woefully unprepared and their initial arguments are weak and ineffective.

You're a good cheerleader for your side. Our side presents their case starting next Tuesday. We'll see how weak and ineffective they are.

 

[erjdude]

deleted

 

[erjdude]

Unfortunately for you the AWA merger committee is woefully unprepared and their initial arguments are weak and ineffective. This while the USAir committee is highly experienced and has put forth a very fair and reasonable proposition



Typhoonpilot[/quote]


My guess is that after our "woefully unprepared commitee" presents its "weak and ineffective" case you will choose to remain an expat 777 capt. Just remember there is a difference between being an active line pilot and not having a job. And I am sorry you are not employed by US but it is not my fault.

Your list has forloughed pilots placed in front of Captains and EMB-170 pilots that were never hired at US placed in front of active mainline pilots. Someone else called it a dream list and I would say that is pretty accurate.

 

[FR8mastr]

for cripes sake, all the pilots that flew the 170 ARE AIRWAYS pilots, not only that they were active when this merger was announced

 

[typhoonpilot]

My guess is that after our "woefully unprepared commitee" presents its "weak and ineffective" case you will choose to remain an expat 777 capt. Just remember there is a difference between being an active line pilot and not having a job. And I am sorry you are not employed by US but it is not my fault.

Your list has forloughed pilots placed in front of Captains and EMB-170 pilots that were never hired at US placed in front of active mainline pilots. Someone else called it a dream list and I would say that is pretty accurate.

What you are failing to look at is the entire document. I'm not sure where you are on the AWA list or the list proposed by USAirways, but it's the conditions and restrictions that you most need to look at. With the fence up until June, 2014 AWA pilots will still hold their previous expectations in the west.

Okay, yeah growth has slowed down or reversed, but that is a management decision. It could be reasonably argued that AWA alone would have run into trouble by now and been forced to go into bankruptcy. That could have resulted in furloughs on the AWA side. Instead we have a combined company that has become much more stable financially. The furloughed U pilots are the ones paying for the downsizing of the combined fleet by staying on the street in place of junior AWA pilots getting furloughed. You may choose to ignore that fact because it doesn't suit your argument, but it is something that must be considered by the arbitrator.

Another consideration is that many U pilots will not return. I would expect only 33% or less. This time there is no pension to return to, only a low paying F.O. job. You're right that I won't be coming back. I've run the numbers and it makes no sense for me to return financially. Many others will make the same determination.


Typhoonpilot

 

[steveg]

What you are failing to look at is the entire document. I'm not sure where you are on the AWA list or the list proposed by USAirways, but it's the conditions and restrictions that you most need to look at. With the fence up until June, 2014 AWA pilots will still hold their previous expectations in the west.

What you are failing to look at is the entire document. Why not a straight ratio with fences? It would protect the upgrades for the East guys and distribute furloughs (if they happen) evenly? Fences are fences regardless of seniority numbers. Oh that's right, the East side is hung up on DOH, their birthright.

Okay, yeah growth has slowed down or reversed, but that is a management decision. It could be reasonably argued that AWA alone would have run into trouble by now and been forced to go into bankruptcy. That could have resulted in furloughs on the AWA side. Instead we have a combined company that has become much more stable financially. The furloughed U pilots are the ones paying for the downsizing of the combined fleet by staying on the street in place of junior AWA pilots getting furloughed. You may choose to ignore that fact because it doesn't suit your argument, but it is something that must be considered by the arbitrator.

Actually, growth has stopped in the West. In the East block hours have increased and there is upward movement. So again, where is the improvement for the West. West went from hiring and rapid upgrades to stagnation and zero growth. West is watching lower paid pilots (B-scale?) come in and replace routes and flying. The East side is recalling pilots, upgrading Captains and seeing a positive future for the first time in how many years?

Why would junior AWA pilots get furloughed? Because our company bought another with excess employees? Because AWA might have gone into BK again? Look at past balance sheets, we were making money and expanding. Who is ignoring facts now?

Another consideration is that many U pilots will not return. I would expect only 33% or less. This time there is no pension to return to, only a low paying F.O. job. You're right that I won't be coming back. I've run the numbers and it makes no sense for me to return financially. Many others will make the same determination.

You say you won't be coming back, but you come on here and clamor for a number above pilots that are currently working. Huh? Why not post the furlough numbers I asked for above, and recognize all the sacrifices the West pilots have made over the years? Well?


Typhoonpilot

I guess it's easier to throw stones from the outside.

 

[johnnyb]

Like I said previously, "do your homework". The failing carrier argument doesn't work with this arbitrator, this from the Flying Tiger Line/Federal Express integration:

On the other hand, I cannot accept the FEC proposal because it relies on a single criterion while minimizing Tiger's contribution to the merger and unduly exaggerating Federal's unmerged future.

Based on this Record, it's evident enough that Tiger was not a "failing" carrier, as that term is commonly understood. It is equally evident, however, that it was not markedly robust, nor the beneficiary of a sustained period of well-being. Arbitrators in prior cases have generally not found the relative weakness of one merger partner vis-a-vis the other of overwhelming significance.

Nevertheless, they have taken into account the benefits, monetary and otherwise, that pilots of a weaker carrier attain by virtue of a merger with one more stable even when, as here, it cannot be said that the more stable actually rescued the other from an imminent demise.



Typhoonpilot​

Which was just reaffirmed last month in the Atlas/Polar merger. Same old tired arguments about who bought who - blah blah blah. They sure did try: Atlas had a 72 slide presentation - Polar 54, expert witnesses all around.

Dismissed by the Arbitrator in a single sentence as not relevant.

Line pilots don't buy airlines.

 

[General Lee]

Like I said previously, "do your homework". The failing carrier argument doesn't work with this arbitrator, this from the Flying Tiger Line/Federal Express integration:

On the other hand, I cannot accept the FEC proposal because it relies on a single criterion while minimizing Tiger's contribution to the merger and unduly exaggerating Federal's unmerged future.​

Based on this Record, it's evident enough that Tiger was not a "failing" carrier, as that term is commonly understood. It is equally evident, however, that it was not markedly robust, nor the beneficiary of a sustained period of well-being. Arbitrators in prior cases have generally not found the relative weakness of one merger partner vis-a-vis the other of overwhelming significance.​

Nevertheless, they have taken into account the benefits, monetary and otherwise, that pilots of a weaker carrier attain by virtue of a merger with one more stable even when, as here, it cannot be said that the more stable actually rescued the other from an imminent demise.​

Typhoonpilot​

You may be wrong. According to an AWA senior Captain I met tonight, he said the arbitrator listened to the East guys for two weeks talk about the bottom USAir guy, and finally said "I don't care what his normal progression would have been, you almost went away, that doesn't matter..." So, it seems he may take into account your airline (USAir) almost going away. Your guys had 3 weeks to persuade the judge (arbitor), and you wasted 2 weeks on what this guy's progression could have been. And, he also said your East pilots settled on a 1996 seniority list with a bunch of guys already retired on it, so they could fill spots with current USAir furloughed pilots. Sounds like the old arbitrator (82 years old) can see thru the krap. Interesting stuff!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[typhoonpilot]

You may be wrong. According to an AWA senior Captain I met tonight, he said the arbitrator listened to the East guys for two weeks talk about the bottom USAir guy, and finally said "I don't care what his normal progression would have been, you almost went away, that doesn't matter..." So, it seems he may take into account your airline (USAir) almost going away. Your guys had 3 weeks to persuade the judge (arbitor), and you wasted 2 weeks on what this guy's progression could have been. And, he also said your East pilots settled on a 1996 seniority list with a bunch of guys already retired on it, so they could fill spots with current USAir furloughed pilots. Sounds like the old arbitrator (82 years old) can see thru the krap. Interesting stuff!


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well, it is definitely not a 1996 seniority list. I've looked at it carefully and it appears to be the correct list as of the Policy Implementation Date. There are no pilots on it born earlier than 1946. That makes the rest of your friend's statement just as suspect. I highly doubt an arbitrator would comment verbally on his thoughts while the hearing was still ongoing.



TP

 

[General Lee]

Well, it is definitely not a 1996 seniority list. I've looked at it carefully and it appears to be the correct list as of the Policy Implementation Date. There are no pilots on it born earlier than 1946. That makes the rest of your friend's statement just as suspect. I highly doubt an arbitrator would comment verbally on his thoughts while the hearing was still ongoing.



TP

He said he has read the transcripts religously. I don't know myself, because he brought it up when I asked how things were going. He said that the list was a 1997 list(or late 90's...I can't remember exactly), and that most of the senior guys were already retired, and that they would fill in those slots (not seniority wise but number wise) with returning USAIr furloughed pilots. He said the arbitrator was fiesty, and was getting mad at some of the East's arguments, including one on Shuttle flying and their pilot's integration. I don't know exactly what all that means, but this guy didn't seem too upset, and said they are now doing their 3 week deal with the arbitrator themselves.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[typhoonpilot]

The list used appear to be current as of 2005. How can I tell that?, because my seniority number on it is about 700-800 numbers higher to what it was in 1998. There are no pilots on it born earlier than 1946. If it was a 1997 list it would still have guys on it born in the late 30s and early 40s.

The East finished their presentation a day early and none of the notes I've read indicate that the arbitrator was upset by any of the arguments. Only somebody who was there can say for sure. The arbitrator's mood would be awefully difficult to judge from reading transcripts.


Typhoonpilot