USair and UAL scope

[crashpad]

And, the term "regional" is better than the term "commuter."
Bye Bye--General Lee

'Feeder Airline' is better than either.

 

[miles otoole]

'Feeder Airline' is better than either.

"Troubled" is better than "Major."

 

[jehtplane]

I think it is great that he is making 100K a year on a 70 seater. Can a "regional" sustain that? Only if they are owned by a HEALTHY major. Where are the healthy majors these days? It is tough to justify that, especially since everyone else has taken a large pay cut. I know the wholleyowns are profitable for the moment, but so is Song (supposedly). Should I get paid more when I fly Song rotations vs mainline? We have all (at mainline and Song) taken a pay cut to help mother Delta. That is what people do when their corporation isn't doing well.

Fee for departure airlines in DCI are also doing well at the moment. The problem they don't see is that the "overall" impression for the business traveller is negative, especially if there is a LCC on the same route with a lager, more comfortable airplane. To cities with no jet service, the RJ is a great deal, though.

In future "regional" contract negotiations, it will be tough for the pilots to justify higher rates than current Jetblue E190 rates, and the rates may tumble. Then, and only then, will some of these senior "regional" pilots see that it may be the right move to move on. The RJDC bunch, on the otherhand, will fight to get larger aircraft at their airlines, so they don't have to start over with new vacations, weekend flying, and being an FO that may have to do a walkaround in the rain! (They haven't done that since they upgraded on the E110 Bandit back in '87)


Bye Bye--General Lee

Lets get to the nitty gritty of why some major airlines are struggling. it wasn't RJ's or the wicked witch of the west , it is mismanagement and rising fuelcosts plain and simple . blame who you want , but the facts still remain. I am done with this thread see ya.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Even with a lack of pensions, the Majors will always be a better place to be than the regionals. There may be mergers in the future, and some more cost cutting, but thanks to the new benchmark---the Jetblue E190 rates---the regional pay will go down eventually too. Face it, how can those bean counters justify a higher rate for a 50 or 70 seat aircraft, when Jetblue currently offers 12 year payrates on 100 seaters far below yours? That won't float. And, you can't blame it on us---we didn't cause it. As our pay rates go down, yours will too--UNFORTUNATELY. Hopefully the Jetblue guys will change that pay rate, and that will help everyone out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah and by the way thanks for letting the regionals get RJ's.........Delta. How many jobs have been outsourced from that move? Spare us your crap General.

 

[miles otoole]

Yeah and by the way thanks for letting the regionals get RJ's.........Delta. How many jobs have been outsourced from that move? Spare us your crap General.

As though ALPA could have stopped it if it wanted to. Management runs the show. Always have and always will.

 

[General Lee]

Yeah and by the way thanks for letting the regionals get RJ's.........Delta. How many jobs have been outsourced from that move? Spare us your crap General.

Yep, that was my fault. I thought the "commuters" back then should be spared crop dusters, so I said "Give them jets a tad bit bigger than the average corporate jet......." You are a moron.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"Troubled" is better than "Major."

That doesn't make sense. I guess I fly for a "troubled." ????????


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

As though ALPA could have stopped it if it wanted to. Management runs the show. Always have and always will.

Management buys airplanes - not pilots. A 25% difference in pay rates does not buy airplanes, a 25% difference in fuel burn does. Just do the math on Comair's pay cuts. A $9 to $12 an hour difference in the cost of a crew does very little on an airplane that costs $2,800 to $3,400 an hour to operate.

These contracts that permitted codeshare on Regional Jets were all:
1) Negotiated by the mainline pilots
2) Signed by the mainline MEC Chairman
3) Signed by ALPA National
4) Ratified by the mainline pilots

In no case has mainline scope ever been ratified by regional pilots. Regional pilots are not allowed to participate.

So if you want to know who to blame, call your own MEC Chairman and look around the crew lounge.

Now that that point is driven home - then next failure of the mainline pilots is that they see small jets as "Regional Jets." Then they argue whether an E170 is a "Regional Jet," but a E190 is not a Regional Jet, but the BAE 146 is a "Regional Jet." I am telling you - this is stupid. Any airplane is an airplane. It does not matter the size. The 767 ruined the dominion of the 747 across the Atlantic, did that make it a bad airplane who's pilots should be kept off the seniority list and scoped? Of course not. The CRJ200 and E135's are airplanes, just like DC-9's and 737's are.

All the mainline pilots have accomplished is to create an alter ego choice for their employers to pick. And lets be clear, the mainline pilots negotiated codeshare and will have to negotiate to bring it back under their control.

However, things are always more difficult to repair than they were to break in the first place. As much as you deride Jet Blue, they have their "Regional Pilots" as you like to call them, on the same list. There is no MESA, or Chautauqua taking over their MCO operation with E170's like Delta ( and Comair ) have experienced. At least Jet Blue knows which pilots it has to negotiate with to offer narrowbody domestic flying. At Delta the choices are, Mesa, Chautauqua, Comair, ASA, American Eagle, Sky West and I'm sure others are waiting.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

P.S. General: You will be pleased to learn that ASA and Comair both lost millions last quarter. ASA's losses are larger than Comair's, despite our lower costs. Our yields just don't keep up. It is amazing how much money is earned in operational profit, just to get lost somewhere in the General Offices. (Source - Aviation Week, the article was on a CP's door, but I did not get the date)

Delta had been talking about restructuring the fee for departure deals and might have done so. Those contracts are keep very very tight to the vest.

Delta needs either CRJ700's, or E170/190's, but can not afford them. Delta also needs 737-800's and 787's to be competitive in the future. It can not afford them either. In my humble opinion Delta needs to relax scope on fuel efficient turboprops, or better yet, just staple everyone and get rid of all the redundant management structures.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,


I agree, we need more RJs with more seats to compete with these lower fares and higher costs. The E170/E190 package is a good one, and the stretched CR9 would give some commonality to the existing fleet. But, I don't think all of the expansion should result in loss of mainline pilots and gain on the regional side. Air Canada and Jazz had an interesting agreement (after Chap 11 --Canada style). Mainline got the Embraer product, and Jazz got the Canadair product. Lower wages ensued, but they both got some growth. I keep hearing though that mainline will have the 737-700 as the smallest plane, so I don't know. Grinstein stated at the last "incommand" session that he thinks there could be more 70 seaters and a smaller amount of 50s, and then 737-700s and up (737 family and some widebody type) for mainline. It sounds like they have some sort of plan, but I wouldn't be against the AC/Jazz type of plan, as long as each group got to enjoy some sort of growth. And, we all know that RJs are self financing.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[crashpad]

The E190 is the only civiled commuter aircraft for the paying customer and only mainline pilots should fly them.

 

[737 Pylt]

Yeah and by the way thanks for letting the regionals get RJ's.........Delta. How many jobs have been outsourced from that move? Spare us your crap General.

While I have no problem with what you said, DAL did drop the ball by letting the rj go to the regionals/feeders/whatever you want to call them, but you guys at JB have set a new low in standard pay for them, so its kind of like the pot calling the kettle black!
737

 

[General Lee]

The E190 is the only civiled commuter aircraft for the paying customer and only mainline pilots should fly them.

I agree, since it would replace a 737-200 sized aircraft. (around 100 seats) But, some of those other stretched RJs, like the CR9, are getting close too. Mesa loves those CR9s, because they can have many more seats, but still pay 50 seat wages.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B6Busdriver]

Yep, that was my fault. I thought the "commuters" back then should be spared crop dusters, so I said "Give them jets a tad bit bigger than the average corporate jet......." You are a moron.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Moron. I'm soooo hurt Mr 50 million post loser. I never said it was YOUR fault. Collectively speaking your union would be to blame. How many jobs have the 50 seat jets cost over the last 10 plus years?

 

[B6Busdriver]

While I have no problem with what you said, DAL did drop the ball by letting the rj go to the regionals/feeders/whatever you want to call them, but you guys at JB have set a new low in standard pay for them, so its kind of like the pot calling the kettle black!
737

I agree the rates on the 190 are bad however I nor any other line pilot had a say as to what the rates were going to be. Is that the pilot groups fault? Maybe a little but not entirely.

 

[surplus1]

I agree the rates on the 190 are bad however I nor any other line pilot had a say as to what the rates were going to be. Is that the pilot groups fault? Maybe a little but not entirely.

Aren't you the guy that a few posts up blamed the Delta pilots for leting the regionals get RJs?

Yes buddy, it IS your pilot groups fault that you got those pay rates. You have no union and that is why you had no say. The choice to not have a union is yours and yours alone; entirely.

Quit passing the buck.