USair and UAL scope

[nwaredtail]

I need the latest scope part of UAL and usair's new contracts. Yeah, I know , there is none. Mostly interested in 70 seaters. thanks

 

[Pilottodd2]

I am hearing news that NWA might be relaxing their scope clause. (Either through legit concessions, or through CH 11). Can you comment on this?
The plane I fly has a red tail too, but only holds 50 pax. I am hoping any 70-90 seaters go to mainline, but that is doubtful.
What we are hearing, down here at the bottom, is that NW mechanics strike/get locked out, and replaced, then NW files bankruptcy prior to Oct 11th (date of new bankruptcy law) and targets pensions.

 

[nwaredtail]

NWA mailine ALPA has already offered to NWA mgmt to fly 70 seaters at basically Comair's rates and contract so I would not get too excited about getting any 70 seaters at Mesaba or Pinnacle. They would be crewed by furloughed NWA pilots. No flowup or flow thru at all. NWA has indicated that they are not in any hurry to buy 70 seaters because with the new lease payment, the DC-9 is close to the same operating cost and is paid for. In Chapter 11, who knows but RJS are not the answer and are definately part of the problem with the legacy carriers. PNCL and Mesaba would be hurting big time if NWA didnt pay for their fuel and gaurantee them a profit. Crap, I'll start a RJ operation if they will do that for me. Also, there is a 4-5 year wait for the e170 and 3-5 years for the crj-700, which I was told NWA doesn't care for.

My opinion is that they will order E-170-e190's and slowly replace the DC-9 and have a sliding, increasing payscale for the larger model. Mesaba and Pncl will just have to be happy with the growth that they have had. The junior pilots out number the senior ones now at NWA and there is no way they will vote to give away their narrowbody flying. It's like voting yes to furlough yourself

 

[jehtplane]

NWA mailine ALPA has already offered to NWA mgmt to fly 70 seaters at basically Comair's rates and contract so I would not get too excited about getting any 70 seaters at Mesaba or Pinnacle. They would be crewed by furloughed NWA pilots. No flowup or flow thru at all. NWA has indicated that they are not in any hurry to buy 70 seaters because with the new lease payment, the DC-9 is close to the same operating cost and is paid for. In Chapter 11, who knows but RJS are not the answer and are definately part of the problem with the legacy carriers. PNCL and Mesaba would be hurting big time if NWA didnt pay for their fuel and gaurantee them a profit. Crap, I'll start a RJ operation if they will do that for me. Also, there is a 4-5 year wait for the e170 and 3-5 years for the crj-700, which I was told NWA doesn't care for.

My opinion is that they will order E-170-e190's and slowly replace the DC-9 and have a sliding, increasing payscale for the larger model. Mesaba and Pncl will just have to be happy with the growth that they have had. The junior pilots out number the senior ones now at NWA and there is no way they will vote to give away their narrowbody flying. It's like voting yes to furlough yourself

Bad RJ , that Terrible RJ, blame everything on the RJ, Cost of oil , blame the RJ. Can you say broken record. Give it a rest.

 

[nwaredtail]

Yeah, you are right. They don't cost 30-40% more to operate on a seat mile basis and don't slow things down in the ATC system. NWA didn't lose 100 million plus last year on their RJ operation, UAL/DAL/USAir have all done much better since transferring so much flying to their RJ affiliates. Yep, you are right.

Rj's are not the cause of the problems, but they are a problem and will never be the solution.

 

[jehtplane]

Yeah, you are right. They don't cost 30-40% more to operate on a seat mile basis and don't slow things down in the ATC system. NWA didn't lose 100 million plus last year on their RJ operation, UAL/DAL/USAir have all done much better since transferring so much flying to their RJ affiliates. Yep, you are right.

Rj's are not the cause of the problems, but they are a problem and will never be the solution.

Al Gore math again. So if all the airlines added bigger jets , would that not bog down the ATC system. Let me guess your answer is no because you could cut a city down to 2 flight's a day instead of 5 flight a day on an rj, forget about passenger convenience, or competition. I nominate you for CEO , genuis!!!

 

[Pilottodd2]

Actually, I agree with redtail. I think the RJ's are NOT efficient utilization of the ATC, landing slot, and gate utilization. I think the EMB 190's are the next big 'thing' at airlines. We will see with jetBlue.
As for any 70-, 90-, or any other new type aircraft, I firmly believe they should all go to mainline, instead of us. From a pilot's point of view, that is why we all got started in this business anyways. To make it to the big-time. I would much rather give up my captain's seat and 200 out of 1200 senority to be a lowly FO at a major (with better work rules, and, hopefully, better pay), than stay at the regional level the rest of my life @ $60.00/hr and flying 90-seaters.
Unfortunately, new aircraft choices do not get decided by considering a pilot's point of view. Management wants the largest income with the lowest labor costs, and the public does not give a crap who is flying the airplane, as long as they get their $39 round trip.
To put it another way, if you were looking for some lumber to build a deck and you could save one penny per 2x4 at Lowes vs. Home depot, and you knew Home Depot employees had a slightly better pay and work rules, who would you go to? Lowes to save the penny per 2X4? Or Home Depot, which costs you more, to continue to provide their employees with better pay/work rules?

 

[jehtplane]

Actually, I agree with redtail. I think the RJ's are NOT efficient utilization of the ATC, landing slot, and gate utilization. I think the EMB 190's are the next big 'thing' at airlines. We will see with jetBlue.
As for any 70-, 90-, or any other new type aircraft, I firmly believe they should all go to mainline, instead of us. From a pilot's point of view, that is why we all got started in this business anyways. To make it to the big-time. I would much rather give up my captain's seat and 200 out of 1200 senority to be a lowly FO at a major (with better work rules, and, hopefully, better pay), than stay at the regional level the rest of my life @ $60.00/hr and flying 90-seaters.
Unfortunately, new aircraft choices do not get decided by considering a pilot's point of view. Management wants the largest income with the lowest labor costs, and the public does not give a crap who is flying the airplane, as long as they get their $39 round trip.
To put it another way, if you were looking for some lumber to build a deck and you could save one penny per 2x4 at Lowes vs. Home depot, and you knew Home Depot employees had a slightly better pay and work rules, who would you go to? Lowes to save the penny per 2X4? Or Home Depot, which costs you more, to continue to provide their employees with better pay/work rules?

Well if you are flying 90 seater's at 60 dollars an hour than yes I would probably go somewhere else to. But I do have some news for you , the major's are not all that anymore. Pensions are going away slowly, which was a main draw, pay is 20-50 percent lower than is was a couple of years ago. Again personal preference. If I am making 6 digits flying a 70 seat passenger jet, fine by me.

 

[General Lee]

Well if you are flying 90 seater's at 60 dollars an hour than yes I would probably go somewhere else to. But I do have some news for you , the major's are not all that anymore. Pensions are going away slowly, which was a main draw, pay is 20-50 percent lower than is was a couple of years ago. Again personal preference. If I am making 6 digits flying a 70 seat passenger jet, fine by me.

Even with a lack of pensions, the Majors will always be a better place to be than the regionals. There may be mergers in the future, and some more cost cutting, but thanks to the new benchmark---the Jetblue E190 rates---the regional pay will go down eventually too. Face it, how can those bean counters justify a higher rate for a 50 or 70 seat aircraft, when Jetblue currently offers 12 year payrates on 100 seaters far below yours? That won't float. And, you can't blame it on us---we didn't cause it. As our pay rates go down, yours will too--UNFORTUNATELY. Hopefully the Jetblue guys will change that pay rate, and that will help everyone out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jehtplane]

Even with a lack of pensions, the Majors will always be a better place to be than the regionals. There may be mergers in the future, and some more cost cutting, but thanks to the new benchmark---the Jetblue E190 rates---the regional pay will go down eventually too. Face it, how can those bean counters justify a higher rate for a 50 or 70 seat aircraft, when Jetblue currently offers 12 year payrates on 100 seaters far below yours. That won't float. And, you can't blame it on us---we didn't cause it. As our pay rates go down, yours will too--UNFORTUNATELY.


Bye Bye--General Lee

True, Jetblue went and set the new low bench mark, I did not realize how bad they were until just the other day, but why will the major's always be better? Pay yes, but what about QOL, schedule's , so forth. I do not think that the major's will always be better with those issues. Todays' "regional" airlines are not yesterday's "regional" airlines. We fly coast to coast, canada, mexico, bahama's, Turks Caicos Islands. The regional term needs to die. I do not see our payrates going down and I do not wish that yours come down. I just think that the "RJ" is not the problem with the airline indusrty as stated above. I just think that the term "jet" in "regional jet" tends to stir all of this crap up.

 

[General Lee]

True, Jetblue went and set the new low bench mark, I did not realize how bad they were until just the other day, but why will the major's always be better? Pay yes, but what about QOL, schedule's , so forth. I do not think that the major's will always be better with those issues. Todays' "regional" airlines are not yesterday's "regional" airlines. We fly coast to coast, canada, mexico, bahama's, Turks Caicos Islands. The regional term needs to die. I do not see our payrates going down and I do not wish that yours come down. I just think that the "RJ" is not the problem with the airline indusrty as stated above. I just think that the term "jet" in "regional jet" tends to stir all of this crap up.

Sure, if you are a senior Captain for a "regional", then your QOL may be better than a junior FO at a "major". And, being senior will always afford you a better salary and more flexibility than the average "regional" pilot. But, USUALLY the benefits are better at a Major, and the chance to fly something different or somewhere different. Unless you are on the MD88 at DL, the number of legs you fly per day are less than the average at a "regional", and maybe that is easier on your body.(?) If that doesn't excite you, then maybe staying put wouldn't be that bad of a choice. And, the term "regional" is better than the term "commuter."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Pilottodd2]

you could call regional airlines 'Mom and Pop' airlines, or "The best darn pilots in the business' airlines. Either way it would not matter.
Management has found a qualified worker pool to accomplish something at a cheaper rate than what they have. If Mgmt could have the 747's flown by "regional" airline pilots at 1/4 the pay, they would do it immediately.
So what are we seeing here? Mgmt is lowering the "mainline" pay to the same level as the "regional" pay. Once that happens, then we will all be one big happy family. Quite literally, because we all have to live in the same house to be able to afford food.
ALPA MUST pull itself together (both mainline and regional) and stand firm against Mgmt, but since ALPA is in Mgmt's pocket (or at least the government's pocket) right now, what is likely to happen is the pay, pension, and work rules will go right down the tubes to its lowest common denominator, which as yet to be set. And all you freight guys, do you think you are safe with you pensions? For now, you are, but not for long. Business is business, and airlines are in the exact same business as Taco Bell. Profit high, costs low. Every new pretty-boy coming out of college with a business degree thinks he knows how to shave off a few more cents here and there to justify his job.
It would be nice if ALPA would establish a pay rate for the heaviest aircraft out there (right now the A380) for Captains, and First Officers on a sliding longevity scale. Then base every other airplane on this scale as a percentage. That way every pilot is paid the same regardless of what color his uniform is. Level the playing field, and fix the costs associated with pilots, just like fuel.

 

[JetMonkey]

I agree with the General. What I've notice coming from the regionals (and I was at a pretty good one) to the majors is QOL for me at least has been better from the get-go. One of the biggest improvements I've noticed is not having too much "airport appreciation time", having trip and duty rigs definately is a plus. At the regional I was at we had so many 4:30am van rides just to fly back to the hub and sit for 3-4 hours before our next turn, I could've used that for more sleep!!!
Well I really don't see that any more (thank God) far more productivity built in pairings at the majors.

 

[drag]

Well if you are flying 90 seater's at 60 dollars an hour than yes I would probably go somewhere else to. But I do have some news for you , the major's are not all that anymore. Pensions are going away slowly, which was a main draw, pay is 20-50 percent lower than is was a couple of years ago. Again personal preference. If I am making 6 digits flying a 70 seat passenger jet, fine by me.

I bet it's fine by you. Perhaps it's not fine by many mainline (especially furloughed) that you're contracted out to fly 70 seaters on routes once flown by mainline dc9s and f100s. 100K plus a year for a 70 seater??? Are you dreaming or on crack? First, Fee for Departure can't afford it and second, you'll be undercut by *************************, Mesa, TSA, or XYZ. Just like Indy, you may have to sink or swim on your own.

 

[General Lee]

I think it is great that he is making 100K a year on a 70 seater. Can a "regional" sustain that? Only if they are owned by a HEALTHY major. Where are the healthy majors these days? It is tough to justify that, especially since everyone else has taken a large pay cut. I know the wholleyowns are profitable for the moment, but so is Song (supposedly). Should I get paid more when I fly Song rotations vs mainline? We have all (at mainline and Song) taken a pay cut to help mother Delta. That is what people do when their corporation isn't doing well.

Fee for departure airlines in DCI are also doing well at the moment. The problem they don't see is that the "overall" impression for the business traveller is negative, especially if there is a LCC on the same route with a lager, more comfortable airplane. To cities with no jet service, the RJ is a great deal, though.

In future "regional" contract negotiations, it will be tough for the pilots to justify higher rates than current Jetblue E190 rates, and the rates may tumble. Then, and only then, will some of these senior "regional" pilots see that it may be the right move to move on. The RJDC bunch, on the otherhand, will fight to get larger aircraft at their airlines, so they don't have to start over with new vacations, weekend flying, and being an FO that may have to do a walkaround in the rain! (They haven't done that since they upgraded on the E110 Bandit back in '87)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[crashpad]

And, the term "regional" is better than the term "commuter."
Bye Bye--General Lee

'Feeder Airline' is better than either.

 

[miles otoole]

'Feeder Airline' is better than either.

"Troubled" is better than "Major."

 

[jehtplane]

I think it is great that he is making 100K a year on a 70 seater. Can a "regional" sustain that? Only if they are owned by a HEALTHY major. Where are the healthy majors these days? It is tough to justify that, especially since everyone else has taken a large pay cut. I know the wholleyowns are profitable for the moment, but so is Song (supposedly). Should I get paid more when I fly Song rotations vs mainline? We have all (at mainline and Song) taken a pay cut to help mother Delta. That is what people do when their corporation isn't doing well.

Fee for departure airlines in DCI are also doing well at the moment. The problem they don't see is that the "overall" impression for the business traveller is negative, especially if there is a LCC on the same route with a lager, more comfortable airplane. To cities with no jet service, the RJ is a great deal, though.

In future "regional" contract negotiations, it will be tough for the pilots to justify higher rates than current Jetblue E190 rates, and the rates may tumble. Then, and only then, will some of these senior "regional" pilots see that it may be the right move to move on. The RJDC bunch, on the otherhand, will fight to get larger aircraft at their airlines, so they don't have to start over with new vacations, weekend flying, and being an FO that may have to do a walkaround in the rain! (They haven't done that since they upgraded on the E110 Bandit back in '87)


Bye Bye--General Lee

Lets get to the nitty gritty of why some major airlines are struggling. it wasn't RJ's or the wicked witch of the west , it is mismanagement and rising fuelcosts plain and simple . blame who you want , but the facts still remain. I am done with this thread see ya.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Even with a lack of pensions, the Majors will always be a better place to be than the regionals. There may be mergers in the future, and some more cost cutting, but thanks to the new benchmark---the Jetblue E190 rates---the regional pay will go down eventually too. Face it, how can those bean counters justify a higher rate for a 50 or 70 seat aircraft, when Jetblue currently offers 12 year payrates on 100 seaters far below yours? That won't float. And, you can't blame it on us---we didn't cause it. As our pay rates go down, yours will too--UNFORTUNATELY. Hopefully the Jetblue guys will change that pay rate, and that will help everyone out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah and by the way thanks for letting the regionals get RJ's.........Delta. How many jobs have been outsourced from that move? Spare us your crap General.

 

[miles otoole]

Yeah and by the way thanks for letting the regionals get RJ's.........Delta. How many jobs have been outsourced from that move? Spare us your crap General.

As though ALPA could have stopped it if it wanted to. Management runs the show. Always have and always will.