USAF Navigator

[Jamis81]

I'm going through the OTS Process right now for the Air Force, and I know a lot about UPT. Does anyone know anything about being a navigator. What the training is like, how long it lasts, anything else that I should know about. Also what the flight physical is like, how in depth. And if there is anything else I should know about being a Navigator / EWO for the USAF.

 

[rcbullock]

And if there is anything else I should know about being a Navigator / EWO for the USAF.

If it's being a pilot you are really after DO NOT check anything but the PILOT box on the app. Re-apply until you get it or are on your last board meeting age-wise then pick either. Maybe.

You will probably deploy a lot, so don't plan on building a lot of time while you are in unless you are a pilot.

If it isn't what you really want to do, don't. Become a CFI, make less money but enjoy it more. Get as much flight time as you can so you can win either way and flight time looks great for getting a UPT slot.

 

[Stash]

Sunt Vs Upt

I'm going through the OTS Process right now for the Air Force, and I know a lot about UPT. Does anyone know anything about being a navigator. What the training is like, how long it lasts, anything else that I should know about. Also what the flight physical is like, how in depth. And if there is anything else I should know about being a Navigator / EWO for the USAF.

Jamis, just remember, if you wash out of UPT, they may send you to Nav school, however, if you wash out of Nav school, you will never go to UPT. If you want to fly, try to do UPT first. Just a thought after teaching in T-38s and F-16s for about 12 years...

 

[skyward80]

Nav Training lasts about 9 months or so. The physical is pretty much the same as the physical you need to be a pilot.

Becoming a pilot after being a nav is a pipe dream for the most part. I know there are probably exceptions to what I'm saying, but I think that the whole "be a nav first and become a pilot later" is a lie recruiters try to sell.

If you want to be a pilot, don't take no for an answer. Keep trying. It's worth the wait and the mountains of paperwork. UPT is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Skyward80

 

[YeOldeProp]

Also realize that the navigator position is one that's slowly being phased out from the inventory. As technology progresses, the need for navs will decrease (and eventually the need for pilots will too...but that's another argument for another time). Any position that the military can replace with technology saves that person's salary, the money required to support that person and their family (remember the saying "if the military wanted you to have a family they'd issue you one...", the money required to move that person every three years, the money required to educate that person, etc.

Go for the pilot side of the house first. The rest of the force is still exciting and does the job, but when you get in the plane...you're in charge. Only problem is when you get off the plane at the end of the trip, hop, mission, whatever...you're smack dab in the middle of an Air Force that's in a bit of a turmoil and trying to figure out how to do more with less, etc. Keep researching the lifestyle of a military member, and make sure you can do the job. And always remember that your primary responsibility is to your fellow aviators and support personnel...not to the guy up the chain of command that wants you to do a boatload of extra non-flying projects because it makes the squadron look good to his boss. If you can't be the pilot, work whatever aviation related position you can...it's still pretty good to be part of a crew/team out there doing the job.

It can be a very good time...thousands of flyers over the years can't be all that wrong. Good luck...

 

[C40_Pilot]

What? Nav training?

These two nav's walk into the BX and see this gumball machine that gives out pilot wings, so they walk over. It costs 75 cents. The first nav reaches into his pocket and pulls out two quarters. The second nav reaches into his pocket and pulls out a buck. So the first nav says to the second nav, "hey, you buy your wings first and with the quarter change, give it to me and I'll buy mine." The second nav says what a great idea. So the second nav puts in his buck, spins the wheel, gets his wings and pins them on and puts the quarter change in his pocket. The first nav, a little worried, goes hey pilot give me that quarter. The pilot now says "Shut up, Nav".

 

[crudeoilpilot]

What Bus

Cap't to the Engineer, wasn't the nav on the crew bus? Nah, he's on the non-essential bus.
I could not resist.

 

[BonesF15]

Don't do it!

Becoming a nav will do nothing but give you a slim opportunity to become a Mil pilot after about 3 years. There have been a lot of guys crossing over to go to upt but it is very competitive amongst all of the young navs, i.e. ranked #1 or #2 off of the base ect. If you get a slot you will be owned by the AF for next 11 or 12 years. Go to ots as a pilot but dont take your chances of getting stuck as a nav on a 4 man E-3 crew and your only job is to start up the INS, or up in Minot ND on B-52's. Do yourself a favor, apply to every guard and reserve unit until you find one that will send you to UPT.

Bones

 

[Mooseflyer]

As others have said, becoming a nav is going to limit your future as the need for them goes away. A bit like becoming a typewriter repairman at the dawn of the computer and laser printer age.

I have known a few active duty pilots who were prior navs, but most made the switch years ago when the military was short on pilots. Believe it or not, the USAF is actually now getting fat on pilots, after years of not being able to train them fast enough. The airline environment has become crappy enough that many folks are staying in the military. The cycle repeats itself.

A guard/reserve unit is a somewhat different story - many units sent their navs to UPT when they switched aircraft to something which didn't require a nav. Regardless, a guard/reserve unit is the way to go anyway, IMO.

 

[JimNtexas]

If you are not physically qualified to be a pilot and want to enjoy military flying then by all means go and enjoy UNT, it's a fun job. If you want to try military flying and are hard up against the age cutoff then it's worth it.

But if you are qualified to be a pilot, not near the age limit, and want to be a pilot then DO NOT go to nav school. Go in as a non-rated officer, or enlist in a guard unit. Fly general aviation planes, you'll have the money for at least some flying. By not going to nav school you are available when the door to UPT opens.

It's not that being a nav is a bad job, it's just not the best way to the pilots seat.

And to cap it off, the fun jobs, like EF-111 or F-4G EWO are almost all gone.

I was a nav for 20 years and enjoyed every minute of it. But don't let a recruiter BS about it being some kind of express lane into UPT.

 

[Jamis81]

Thanks for all the advice, Being a Nav is not something that I would choose as a first choice, my goal is to fly. I'm just looking at everything as I prepare to send in my packet for OTS.
Just an FYI about Air Force Selection rates, they are very full on pilots, 29 percent of people who applied to be a pilot in the last 6 months were chosen, while 95 percent of people who applied to be a Nav were chosen. So I'm just looking at all the options..The Guard is definately something that I am looking into, I'm just trying to look into all the options.

 

[TonyC]

Just an FYI about Air Force Selection rates, they are very full on pilots, 29 percent of people who applied to be a pilot in the last 6 months were chosen, while 95 percent of people who applied to be a Nav were chosen. So I'm just looking at all the options..The Guard is definately something that I am looking into, I'm just trying to look into all the options.

What are the numbers for Air Force Reserve?

 

[Future SNA]

In the kindest way possible, if you really want to be a pilot, knock the cobwebs off of what you and I call physical fitness and apply to the Marines Corps, out of all the services, I think they're officially the only ones declaring, "we're hurting for pilots."

 

[Jafar]

In the kindest way possible, if you really want to be a pilot, knock the cobwebs off of what you and I call physical fitness and apply to the Marines Corps, out of all the services, I think they're officially the only ones declaring, "we're hurting for pilots."

I'm afraid I have to take issue with this statement. 8 years in the Marines has given me a little insight into the organization, not to mention the fact that I've been where you're going. I went through OCS years ago, (as an air contract)completed it, but opted to go another route.

I eventually left the Corps and have decided to go Air Force, most likely Guard or Reserve.

If you want to be a Marine, then join the Marines. That's about all that can accurately be said about it. If you want to be a pilot and think the Marines are in the business of making them you're sadly mistaken. If you want to be a Marine, then a Marine Officer, and lastly a Marine Officer who happens to fly, then maybe consider it.

If one walked into the local OSO shop and told them "Hey man, I wanna fly jets!" They'd probably throw you out. (At least the OSO's I know.) Now if you said "I want more than anything to be an Officer of Marines!" you'd have a conversation. Then you mention "I think I'd like to fly as a Marine Officer" and they send your package up as "air".

Bottom line, I don't think joining the Marines because all you want to do is fly is a very good idea. Furthermore, how much sense does it make when there is a perfectly good AIR Force?

A good friend of mine is a member on this forum and has much better insight on this subject than myself. Hopefully he'll chime in...

 

[usmc33]

Think twice.

In the kindest way possible, if you really want to be a pilot, knock the cobwebs off of what you and I call physical fitness and apply to the Marines Corps, out of all the services, I think they're officially the only ones declaring, "we're hurting for pilots."

Hey, this is going to be a little bit of a pointed conversation but I gotta tell you about the Marines. Do you know why the USMC; the service with the smallest budget (about 4% of DOD budget) has the best recruiting campaign around? It's because that's what it takes to get people to join. I hate to say this, but I was one of those people when I was younger who bought the recruiting campaign and all of the propaganda the the Marines likes to sell. I joined, went to OCS (PLC) became an officer, went on to fly F/A-18s, had a great time, then found out that "Semper Fidelis" is a concept that only works one way, from you to the Corps and NEVER the other way around. Now, please don't get me wrong, I'm not a totally bitter person towards the Corps, I just grew up and found out that my IQ was, in fact, a 3 digit number and I opted to become an Army Special Operator and work with some really intelligent, hardcore, professional people. Check your birth certificate, you may be unqualified to be a Marine.

Look up all of my posts under: "usmc33" and read the history of my comments over the past 2+ years and you'll see that no former Marine has ever disputed anything I've ever said.

The best thing you can do is go to your OSO, tell him thanks anyway and GO AIR FORCE if you want to fly.

 

[Born_a_Longhorn]

As a Pilot/NAV OTS applicant who was just selected for NAV, I'm gonna be brave and speak up. I'll just address things quote by quote.

Jamis, just remember, if you wash out of UPT, they may send you to Nav school, however, if you wash out of Nav school, you will never go to UPT.

If you can't hack it in SUNT, then its highly unlikely you'd hack it in UPT.

Becoming a pilot after being a nav is a pipe dream for the most part. I know there are probably exceptions to what I'm saying, but I think that the whole "be a nav first and become a pilot later" is a lie recruiters try to sell.

and

Becoming a nav will do nothing but give you a slim opportunity to become a Mil pilot after about 3 years. There have been a lot of guys crossing over to go to upt but it is very competitive amongst all of the young navs, i.e. ranked #1 or #2 off of the base ect.

Again, if in your 2-3 years you aren't able to make enough of an impression to get a UPT recommendation, you probably don't have a great shot at getting a UPT slot the first time around. And I don't have exact numbers, but there have been TOO many NAVs crossing over to pilot for them to have all been the #1 or #2 guy on their base. Not only that, but after two years of being a NAV you are allowed to apply to the UPT board every year until you're age-critical (for me this will be 3-4 chances).

I have known a few active duty pilots who were prior navs, but most made the switch years ago when the military was short on pilots. Believe it or not, the USAF is actually now getting fat on pilots, after years of not being able to train them fast enough. The airline environment has become crappy enough that many folks are staying in the military. The cycle repeats itself.

First, the NAV to Pilot switch is still happening, its not a thing of the past. Second, yes the airline situation is crappy and is part of the reason why the AF is retaining pilots and has too many of them, but you provided the reason why... the cycle. There is plenty of reason to believe the airlines will pick up business again and the AF will have a greater need for pilots (not necessarily related, I realize). Guys like myself (and Jamis) wouldn't even have the chance to get to UPT until about 4-5 years down the road anyway, and no one can predict what the airline or AF pilot situation will be then.

Go in as a non-rated officer, or enlist in a guard unit. Fly general aviation planes, you'll have the money for at least some flying....It's not that being a nav is a bad job, it's just not the best way to the pilots seat.

As someone who had the opporunity to go in as an engineer and get the chance to apply to cross to pilot almost immediately, I disagree with going in doing something you REALLY wouldn't want to do while hoping for a UPT slot.

And to cap it off, the fun jobs, like EF-111 or F-4G EWO are almost all gone.

Obviously you're the expert, but don't you think C-130, B-1, and F-15 NAV/WSOs would take issue with this? Doesn't it make sense that the lowest ranked guys in SUNT are the ones that end up with the "least fun" E-3 and E-8 slots?

 

[JimNtexas]

As a Pilot/NAV OTS applicant who was just selected for NAV, I'm gonna be brave and speak up. I'll just address things quote by quote.
.....
As someone who had the opporunity to go in as an engineer and get the chance to apply to cross to pilot almost immediately, I disagree with going in doing something you REALLY wouldn't want to do while hoping for a UPT slot.
Obviously you're the expert, but don't you think C-130, B-1, and F-15 NAV/WSOs would take issue with this? Doesn't it make sense that the lowest ranked guys in SUNT are the ones that end up with the "least fun" E-3 and E-8 slots?

I'm being a little parochial there I admit. While being an EF-111 crewmember in either seat is pretty much the pinnacle of human achievement since the dawn of time, I will concede that our lesser brothers and sisters in the aviation hierarchy have a little fun also.

Funmeters aside, Your post is 100% logical. I just suggest that you be the best nav you can be. Don't whine about not being a pilot, just put your head down, keep a positive attitude, and do the work to the best of your ability.

When the time comes to apply to UPT you'll have a good chance to get in.