USA Today Pilot Pay article

[PositionandHold]

I don't know if this was posted before, but a couple of days ago USA Today had an article on the front page of the Money section about Pilot Pay cuts and management.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2006-10-03-air-labor-usat_x.htm

 

[Shrek]

Love how they compare top end payscales.........that should generate sympathy.....they have always done it though........

 

[JRT123]

How come they never post the 5 year FO pay for the regionals?? The public would be shocked, just shocked I tell ya.

 

[Ben Franklin]

They rarely post SWA pay, either. Wouldn't wanna dispel the "myth" of the LCC pilot pay scales!

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[GuppyWN]

It's called a Low Cost Carrier - not a Low Wage Carrier.

Gup

 

[Ben Franklin]

still doesn't explain why they don't usually publish the annual pay in those articles as they readily do for the "other" airlines in the same article.

I just wonder what people would think if they kept reading that SWA captains were making 180-200K per year.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[GCD]

Don't fret over USA's class warfare attempts. This article has been running, in one version or another, at least once a year for ten years. Anyone with more than a ninth-grade education knows the truth. I've heard many-a-parent outside of the industry tell their children to NOT get into the airline business, especially as a pilot.

 

[capt. megadeth]

That article made me so mad that I couldn't finish it.

My BP went up around the part where some company defends it's management bonus saying "well, it's what was promised so we have to give it to them" or something like that. What about the pensions that were promised to everyone else. $?!@ers

 

[ferlo]

It's called a Low Cost Carrier - not a Low Wage Carrier.

Gup

Yep,

Just because you guys "brought up the rear" for 33 out of the last 35 years doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

[Phaedrus]

Where's my popcorn and beer?

 

[GuppyWN]

Yep,

Just because you guys "brought up the rear" for 33 out of the last 35 years doesn't mean anything anymore.

And now that you're takin' it in the rear it's my fault?

Gup

 

[Green]

If I was at SWA right now I would be very concerned with the eroding wages at the 'legacies.' When Southwest's fuel hedges run out they'll be left paying about 50% more than the current going rate for labor and they won't have access to any meaningful amount of international revenue.

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

If I was at SWA right now I would be very concerned with the eroding wages at the 'legacies.' When Southwest's fuel hedges run out they'll be left paying about 50% more than the current going rate for labor and they won't have access to any meaningful amount of international revenue.

you need to learn about this little thing called pilot casm. comeback to me when you figure the comparison betwen us and the legacy, and not the hourly rate.

 

[800Dog]

And now that you're takin' it in the rear it's my fault?

Gup

Considering the fact that you all did the job for significantly less and with no retirement, yes, it is partially your fault!! Enjoy the ride.

 

[Scrapdog]

Considering the fact that you all did the job for significantly less and with no retirement, yes, it is partially your fault!! Enjoy the ride.

800Dog - How in the heck can you blame another guy who's actually doing well for himself that it is his fault you're getting it in the shorts? He had nothing to do with your airline's management. He personally probably doesn't even know who in the heck you are. Good on him for working for a good company with a good outlook, I wish him and everyone else doing well the best of luck. It cracks me up that guys see someone else with a good deal and they don't, and then they crap all over the guy with the good deal. Who cares! If you don't like your job, get another one. The beauty of this country is we have a choice in what we do.

 

[airlinepilot]

Hey Green.....good name considering your post about our fuel hedges....etc....you clearly don't have a real clue about the total
picture at SWA....there is alot more to the picture that make it work

 

[800Dog]

800Dog - How in the heck can you blame another guy who's actually doing well for himself that it is his fault you're getting it in the shorts? He had nothing to do with your airline's management. He personally probably doesn't even know who in the heck you are. Good on him for working for a good company with a good outlook, I wish him and everyone else doing well the best of luck. It cracks me up that guys see someone else with a good deal and they don't, and then they crap all over the guy with the good deal. Who cares! If you don't like your job, get another one. The beauty of this country is we have a choice in what we do.

Obviously we have different opinions of what doing well for onesself means. You are right in that he had nothing to do with management but, he had everything two do with what a 737 pilot is paid and what kind of benefits he sees. The fact that you do not see that is partly to blame for the decline of the profession. Don't forget, there are pilots out there who will do the same job as a LUV pilot for much less and consider himself "to be doing well".

 

[Scrapdog]

Obviously we have different opinions of what doing well for onesself means. You are right in that he had nothing to do with management but, he had everything two do with what a 737 pilot is paid and what kind of benefits he sees. The fact that you do not see that is partly to blame for the decline of the profession. Don't forget, there are pilots out there who will do the same job as a LUV pilot for much less and consider himself "to be doing well".

The fact he flies a 737 and gets decent pay and benefits shouldn't allow him to get a good deal because it's a 737? Are you kidding me? An airliner is an airliner. You plug your data in the FMS, you push the throttle forward, you throw the gear up, you hit "autopilot on" and you start filling out your sodoku puzzle. Honeslty, the automation in today's airliners is far beyond the VORTAC days of 1980. Who cares what kind of aluminum tube it is. It's a job. It's not like your arguing over the F-22 vs. the F-16 here and which one does a better break turn. Again, who cares. Heck, LUV pilots probably work harder than most other airline guys do the fact they fly 6 or 7 legs a day. Again, how is this a personal issue? If they paid me 190K a year as a 12 year captain with good benefits and I was flying a Navajo, I'd do it. It's a job. Go get another one.

 

[Benhuntn]

Capt M-death....could it have been aunt flow was visiting or was it really the article?

 

[Caveman]

Prior to 9/11 SWA was one of the lowest paid 73 operators out there and we're not talking slightly lower either. They were significantly less paid than their counterparts at DAL, UAL, NWA and CAL. Plus, they didn't have any retirement. During the summer of 2001 SWA was in negotiations for a new contract. The battle cry was parity with DAL/United. Shortly after 9/11 the SWA pilots agreed to a multi-year extension to their curent contract with essentially only COLA increases. In hindsight that was a very good call and it worked out well for them and the company.

The economy, 9/11 and high oil prices had a huge effect, but SWA's relatively low labor costs were a factor in the decline of legacy wages. No flame, just the truth. Denial of this is simply revisionist history.

.

 

[800Dog]

The fact he flies a 737 and gets decent pay and benefits shouldn't allow him to get a good deal because it's a 737? Are you kidding me? An airliner is an airliner. You plug your data in the FMS, you push the throttle forward, you throw the gear up, you hit "autopilot on" and you start filling out your sodoku puzzle. Honeslty, the automation in today's airliners is far beyond the VORTAC days of 1980. Who cares what kind of aluminum tube it is. It's a job. It's not like your arguing over the F-22 vs. the F-16 here and which one does a better break turn. Again, who cares. Heck, LUV pilots probably work harder than most other airline guys do the fact they fly 6 or 7 legs a day. Again, how is this a personal issue? If they paid me 190K a year as a 12 year captain with good benefits and I was flying a Navajo, I'd do it. It's a job. Go get another one.

Please do us all a favor and stay out of the airline business. An airliner is not an airliner. The bigger they are, the more revenue they generate. A pilot is a necessary tool to generate that revenue. If you cannot see that, you are truly blind. We work for publicly traded companies, not the govt. Keep flying the fighters and leave the fight for the profession up to those of us who truly care. You will make a great VP of flt ops. Know what that means? See you at the negotiating table tool.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Prior to 9/11 SWA was one of the lowest paid 73 operators out there and we're not talking slightly lower either. They were significantly less paid than their counterparts at DAL, UAL, NWA and CAL. Plus, they didn't have any retirement. During the summer of 2001 SWA was in negotiations for a new contract. The battle cry was parity with DAL/United. Shortly after 9/11 the SWA pilots agreed to a multi-year extension to their curent contract with essentially only COLA increases. In hindsight that was a very good call and it worked out well for them and the company.

The economy, 9/11 and high oil prices had a huge effect, but SWA's relatively low labor costs were a factor in the decline of legacy wages. No flame, just the truth. Denial of this is simply revisionist history.

.

You must have been in the cave too long. Yes, the pay rate at SWA was lower, but the efficiency of our operation allows more flying (pay) for a given duty day. We have always flown more hours than the legacies, but did not have to work more days to make nearly the same, and in many cases more $.

Also, I am in the same retirement plan (401k and Profitsharing) now that I had in 1993 that I am very happy with. You may believe that qualifies as "no retirement", but it should allow me to walk away any time after age 55.

 

[800Dog]

You must have been in the cave too long. Yes, the pay rate at SWA was lower, but the efficiency of our operation allows more flying (pay) for a given duty day. We have always flown more hours than the legacies, but did not have to work more days to make nearly the same, and in many cases more $.

Also, I am in the same retirement plan (401k and Profitsharing) now that I had in 1993 that I am very happy with. You may believe that qualifies as "no retirement", but it should allow me to walk away any time after age 55.

And how does that "retirement" compare with what the legacy carriers offered until a few years ago? There will be folks on this board who make less and retire with less than you in the future and offer the same excuses as you. Place your bets. Hope you feel good about yourself for the time being as it will be short lasted.

 

[Caveman]

You must have been in the cave too long. Yes, the pay rate at SWA was lower, but the efficiency of our operation allows more flying (pay) for a given duty day. We have always flown more hours than the legacies, but did not have to work more days to make nearly the same, and in many cases more $.

That's like saying working an 8 hour day for $5 an hour is the same as working a 4 hour day for $10 an hour. At least you admitted that SWA pay was low compared to everybody else. Why is it so hard for you guys to swallow the idea that your low labor cost had at least some effect on the recent reduction in industry wages? It wasn't the sole reason, nor probably even the primary reason, but it was a factor.

 

[canyonblue]

So much for Geico thinking "even a caveman could figure it out". This caveman couldn't figure his way out of a paper bag. Nobody makes anyone work for less money, only pilots can do that too themselves. These same idiots who implied SWA pilots were fools for flying a 737 for the wages they did, are now then the fools themselves by everyone standards for flying for even less than SWA pilots did nyears ago. You may want to place your blame on another pilot group, but the bottom line is that you are doing your job for significantly less, and you accept that. So stop with the pity-me routine, it's really pathetic. And as far as SWA pilots pay, if I were at a Legacy carrier I'd be praying to my airborne God that it stays the same or goes up or you will never see a wage increase in your career ever again. SWA pilots with a paycut, that would be your worst nightmare.

 

[Caveman]

A couple of people suggest that SWA's low relatively lower pay might have had an influence on the current state of industry pay and you two start with the personal attacks. Nobody critisized anybody. No blaming. Just a freaking reasonable observation and you two start your brilliant retorts with a wisecrack. You still haven't addressed the idea that maybe, just maybe, your overall pilot compensation might have had an ever so slight effect on industry wages. How about a little honesty instead of childish BS?

 

[Hagar17]

That article made me so mad that I couldn't finish it.

My BP went up around the part where some company defends it's management bonus saying "well, it's what was promised so we have to give it to them" or something like that. What about the pensions that were promised to everyone else. $?!@ers

I like the way you think, Captain Mustaine. It just goes to show how twisted the thinking of the priviledged of the world really is. "Shared pain" my a$$.

Just remember: "Freight is my business.......and business is good!":angryfire

Hag

 

[Scrapdog]

Please do us all a favor and stay out of the airline business. An airliner is not an airliner. The bigger they are, the more revenue they generate. A pilot is a necessary tool to generate that revenue. If you cannot see that, you are truly blind. We work for publicly traded companies, not the govt. Keep flying the fighters and leave the fight for the profession up to those of us who truly care. You will make a great VP of flt ops. Know what that means? See you at the negotiating table tool.

Wow, your analysis is impressive. The bigger they are, the more they generate hmm?? So, from what you're saying - and excuse me because my logic may not be quite as astute as yours - a 767 from a legacy that is filled with about 1/4 of pax makes more than a fully loaded SWA 737 (which is the case time and time over)...with the fuel burn on the 767 being about 3 times that of the 737? Wow, you're right, that "bigger" airliner must be raking in the bucks in that case.

You missed my entire facet on my initial post...you were making the point that a guy doing well at SWA now was a personal issue against a guy working at a legacy, and of course it isn't - he doesn't know who you are from Adam.

And yes, I do know what the VP of flight ops means dude.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Just remember: "Freight is my business.......and business is good!":angryfire

Hag

OOOOhhhh, I love that! Can I make that my signature?

 

[highsky]

The high SWA pilot wages now is a good thing for ALL airline pilots, and hopefully the SWA wages will continue to rise.

The principle that seems to be ignored by many (and unfortunately with union leadership) is that we are ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. Whether you're with NWA, SWA, AA, UAL, or whatever, we are all airline pilots, and collectively, we determine our standard of living. There doesn't just need to be solidarity in our respective airline's pilot group, there must be collective solidarity across the entire industry.

Let's face it: An airline pilot is worth about $35K in our capitalist society. You can always find some chump who is willing to fly big jets around the world for $35K. Managements don't want to make pilots rich; they want cheap labor. Just look at the regionals as an example. The ONLY reason we are making more than that is because of union solidarity.

A few facts that can't be ingnored:
Pre 9/11, a NWA A-fund payout was 14K per month, for the rest of your life.
SWA A-fund payout was ZERO.
NWA pilots pay zero for their airline specific training.
SWA pilots must show up on the property having partially paid for their airline specific training with their own type rating, thus softening the cost for SWA.
SWA pilots have been known to throw luggage into the cargo compartment and clean out the aisles and seats between turns.
NWA hires baggage handlers and janitors.
Pre 9/11 SWA wages were about 40% less than NWA wages.

When LCCs only had 8% of the domestic market, this all didn't matter so much, but LCCs now have over 30% of the domestic market. SWA is THE largest domestic carrier. There was no way NWA or DAL or UAL or AA could compete with the significantly lower labor costs.

There are, of course, MANY reasons for the fall of the legacies. But the pilots of SWA and the other LCCs were obviously a factor. They were responsible for lowering the bar and establishing the standard of living that the rest of us must now follow. Water will always seek to level itself, and now those of us at the legacies have had a 40% drop in the standard of living which now looks very similar to that of the LCCs.

This isn't a competition, this is our livelihoods! Let's ALL unite to advance our standard of living. Then ALL airlines can increase ticket prices, and the consumer will fund our future.