USA Today: Concerns arise over regional airlines

[Dubya]

Money doesnt have little to do with the fact that guys are getting stupid due to fatigue and lack of experience. Pax dont give a crap of what you're making, they only care to get good & safe service.
Hell! Everytime I jumpseat the last thing I want to see is both pilots up front not complaining and crying about how "little" money they make, and how they could make more a as a Burger King manager, mean while they're Vref+30 and 1 dot high on the f****** glide slope.
One thing thing at a time my friend.

Dear God I hope that was intentional.

W

 

[siucavflight]

The real problem that should be addressed is the the airlines hiring 200-500tt hour pilots to fly airliners at the regionals. I would rather have an experienced tired pilot than an inexperienced low time fully awake pilot at the controls. JMHO

I completely disagree with this. Regardless of the experience of the pilot, I would always choose the one who is awake to fly me around.

 

[XPOO]

Just like the Captain who used to tell all of his new F/O's that they had better not let him wake up to catch them sleeping.

 

[Flybet3]

Dear God I hope that was intentional.

W

Give me a break man, I'm been fu***d up with the flu for the last 4 days.

 

[Superpilot92]

I completely disagree with this. Regardless of the experience of the pilot, I would always choose the one who is awake to fly me around.

I disagree because experience of the pilot is directly related to you making it to your destination safely. I didn't say an asleep pilot i said a tired experienced pilot. Its a moot point, both items need to be addressed and are both = as important of an issue.

 

[rtmcfi]

The older more experienced guy is more likely to tell crew scheduling that he is fatigued than the new hire.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

What the FAA should say:

Any pilot who excuses him/herself from duty due to illness or fatigue is immune from discipline by their respective company and/or those entities with operational control over the flight.

It'll never happen, since the FAA has to both promote and regulate the aviation industry. But it is that dichotomy which is the ultimate cause of much of the danger present in our business.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Just like the Captain who used to tell all of his new F/O's that they had better not let him wake up to catch them sleeping.

What's wrong with that? It is bad when you wake up and find out they're asleep.

 

[John Pennekamp]

What the FAA should say:

Any pilot who excuses him/herself from duty due to illness or fatigue is immune from discipline by their respective company and/or those entities with operational control over the flight.

It'll never happen, since the FAA has to both promote and regulate the aviation industry. But it is that dichotomy which is the ultimate cause of much of the danger present in our business.

Here's what the FAA actually says:

"A certificate holder has the right to establish an attendance program as part of running its business". That's what they said about ASA's "occurrence" program when the union dropped a dime about pilots being intimidated for calling in sick.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

what the hell is an "occurence?" there is nothing in writing from the company that explains it. I think it's a Bravo Sierra program and until they start providing employees with info, they should all be erased.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

True J. The FAA has taken what should be a purely safety of flight decision and allowed the companies to add an element of discipline to the pilot's decision making matrix.

What if...

You were preflighting your aircraft, and noticed a small fluid leak. You feel it is a safety of flight issue, so you attempt to write it up. The company tells you that you can only write up 7 items in a rolling 12 month period, and you currently have 5. Any further write ups will result in your suspention. One more than that and you will be terminated without recourse.

Pretty silly right? It would never happen and the FAA would probably poop parrots if it did.

So how is it any different when you preflight yourself? You are one component of the CRM triangle vital to safety: Hardware, liveware and software. If something is broken with your "systems" then you should write yourself up, same way you would if your FMS gave you an error message or if your airplane was otherwise tango uniform.

The amazing thing is... You can't. The management who's responsibility it is to create the conditions under which it is possible to make responsible decisions deliberately does the opposite. Adding an element of discipline to a safety decision invites disaster... Human beings, no matter how experienced or professional, react to duress at some level.

It is pretty amazing when you think about it, I believe.

For the record... I took my sick arse home today and spared my coworkers my plague.

 

[sqwkvfr]

said Jonathan Ornstein, chairman and CEO of Mesa Air Group, which operates regional airlines. "No fatalities last year. That speaks for itself."

Wow pat yourself on the back.

Yeah, despite Jon's best efforts, no one died last year.

 

[DrewBlows]

It'll never happen, since the FAA has to both promote and regulate the aviation industry. But it is that dichotomy which is the ultimate cause of much of the danger present in our business.

The responsibility to "promote" aviation travel was taken away from the FAA some time ago. The history buffs here might be able to give the date this happened. Of course this doesn't mean that some within the FAA haven't taken it upon themselves to "promote" aviation by means of "helping" companies operationally. One only needs to read the whistle blowers article that is floating around here to see an example of this.

 

[ReverseSensing]

what the hell is an "occurence?"

It's probably like the dreaded "permanent record" that my 4th grade teacher Ms. Keys threatened to put stuff in. Nonsense, and everyone knows it, except for 4th graders, of course.

 

[ReverseSensing]

True J. The FAA has taken what should be a purely safety of flight decision and allowed the companies to add an element of discipline to the pilot's decision making matrix.

What if...

You were preflighting your aircraft, and noticed a small fluid leak. You feel it is a safety of flight issue, so you attempt to write it up. The company tells you that you can only write up 7 items in a rolling 12 month period, and you currently have 5. Any further write ups will result in your suspention. One more than that and you will be terminated without recourse.

Pretty silly right? It would never happen and the FAA would probably poop parrots if it did.

So how is it any different when you preflight yourself? You are one component of the CRM triangle vital to safety: Hardware, liveware and software. If something is broken with your "systems" then you should write yourself up, same way you would if your FMS gave you an error message or if your airplane was otherwise tango uniform.

The amazing thing is... You can't. The management who's responsibility it is to create the conditions under which it is possible to make responsible decisions deliberately does the opposite. Adding an element of discipline to a safety decision invites disaster... Human beings, no matter how experienced or professional, react to duress at some level.

It is pretty amazing when you think about it, I believe.

For the record... I took my sick arse home today and spared my coworkers my plague.

Excellent post.

It's bad enough that most fatigue policies are punitive (in the sense that you lose credit hours for missed flying), but to have a fatigue call result in discipline is ridiculous. I would think that a full-court press from a union would easily get rid of it.

 

[Dubya]

It's probably like the dreaded "permanent record" that my 4th grade teacher Ms. Keys threatened to put stuff in. Nonsense, and everyone knows it, except for 4th graders, of course.

You had Ms. Lange too?!?

W

 

[fam62c]

Nice article but the public really doesn't care, they just want cheap tickets. It will take one (or more) major fiery crashes where the NTSB attributes the cause to fatigue and/or inexperience before anything changes. The fact is that even with all of the problems we get the job done safely most of the time and we have a good safety record. This speaks volumes about airline pilots in general. The airlines will put anybody they can find (who is willing to work for what they pay) into the cockpit to keep the planes in the air. They will say that it's SAFE because it's LEGAL and they will be off the hook if anything bad happens. It's just always been this way.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Nice article but the public really doesn't care, they just want cheap tickets. It will take one (or more) major fiery crashes where the NTSB attributes the cause to fatigue and/or inexperience before anything changes. The fact is that even with all of the problems we get the job done safely most of the time and we have a good safety record. This speaks volumes about airline pilots in general. The airlines will put anybody they can find (who is willing to work for what they pay) into the cockpit to keep the planes in the air. They will say that it's SAFE because it's LEGAL and they will be off the hook if anything bad happens. It's just always been this way.

You're harshing my buzz, dude.

 

[Flyprdu]

Reminds me of Chris Rock:

"Least I'm not in jail...."
"I take care of my kids....."

"My airline hasn't killed anyone....."

Whatchu want a cookie?!
You low expectation dumb mutha********************a!

I love that bit.

 

[B727FA]

Reminds me of Chris Rock:

"Least I'm not in jail...."
"I take care of my kids....."

"My airline hasn't killed anyone....."

As Judge Judy would say, "Um is not an answer!"

Maybe your airline hasn't killed any "one" but it's killed more than one career.