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US Wholly's sold out

Beavis

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Siegal says the WO's will be liquidated, possibly...and U is "getting out of the turboprop business." ALG and PDT have pilots on furlough, while U starts another WO!!! Nice......thanks ALPA!! Thanks for protecting my job! All the guys at the 3 WO's....Good luck. I know many people at all companies, what an awesome bunch of guys. Peoples lives and careers are going down the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ter, so some mainline guys can get jobs flying planes they didnt want to fly anymore in the first place!! What an industry!
 

ATA75Pilot

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I left ALG after 10 years and a comfortable seniority bcause I saw the light at the end of the tunnel....and determined it was an oncoming train.

For the time I was there it was always "RJ's just around the corner" or "Flow-Thru just around the corner". I got tired of waiting for whatever was "just around the corner". I got tired of being treated as the bast**d step-child of USAirways by it's management and it's pilots.

If mainline pilot's had any sense of fairness they would fight against this happening. They are taking jobs from fellow pilots within the same union and the same company. If ALPA was truly for every member equally they would put a stop to this.

But no. The "Brotherhood of ALPA" is a nice comfortable myth. The reality is that pilot groups within ALPA will eat their young. And pilots within a particular group will screw their own in the name of seniority.

Just look at how USAir's pilots kept their 300+ furloughs on the street for years all the while freely picking up time greater than guarantee with the union's blessing.

ALPA is fantastic for the legal, medical, and contract resources and is worth every penny of my dues for those reasons. But ALPA cannot truly call itself a single Union of Pilots unless every member is treated with the same level of fairness - whether they are a 767 Captain or a Dash-8 FO.

I am truly sorry to see this happen. ALG, PDT, and PSA are truly great companies to fly for and it's pilot's are as professional and dedicated as any mainline pilot. As one who is looking from the "other side of the fence" now I see that it is just a matter of seats.

Whether it's a 767 or a Dash -8 there is no difference. You learn the airplane, it's limitations, the rules that apply and you do your best as a professional to get your passengers to thier destination as safely and comfortably as possible.

Best Of Luck.
 

AJWick

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Hey Beavis,
I feel your pain. That sucks about Mid Atlantic and US selling the wholly owns downstream.

I am a furloughed US guy and I had been at the commuters for 8 yrs. I have sadly seen both sides. Hey it sucks to see mgmt use this 9/11 tragedy to their advantage. I am all for giving the rjs to the wholly owned....We should all be considered on the same team.

However, I hope you understand that as a furloughed mainline guy, I should have some rights to fly an RJ. For is it fair to grow the regionals wholly owned or not, and have mainline guys on the streets? just the flip side of the coin. thats all.

Lets hope something good comes out of it all.

I had read on a different thread that comair is giving preferential treatment to the w/o furloughed guys for hiring.
I replied on that thread stating thats great but is it fair? Heck, shouldnt all alpa furloughed guys get the same treatment? Especially the furloughed DL guys? maybe they are. Afterall we helped comair pilots during their strike with the strike fund and jumpseat rights.

I agree with you ATA75Pilot

Are you guys hiring?

Thats all I can think of without having my first cup of coffee yet.
Good Luck to all of us
:cool:
 

ATA75Pilot

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AJWick...

My condolences on your furlough situation...no way around it...it most defintely sucks and I hope you get the opportunity to get back into the cockpit soon.

Most of my freinds have lost thier flying positions (many of them at USAirways) for God knows how many years and I'm still flying at ATA. Go figure...never would have thought that would happen.

ATA is starting back in the hiring mode but it is pretty limited..I think 8 guys in the first round. We actually need approximately 90 with the growth and deliveries this year but I don't see them bringing on more pilots until this contract gets signed.

As far as USAir furloughs getting first crack at the RJ's at this new start-up operation....

We fought this since the early 90's with the mainline pilot group. We tried to secure a "flow-thru" agreement for years. As part of the agreement...flow-back was an option for times just as these to provide jobs for the furloughees at the regional level.

But no....we were seen as trying to secure a jet job without having "earned it". The one negotiator on our side was told to his face by mainline negotiators that "we didn't understand swept wing dynamics, or high speed operations, and that they needed to keep the door open for F-16 guys and such when hiring". That's a direct quote.

I never understood this. The WO's are USAirways. It is the same company that pays both mainline and WO paychecks. Whether you are flying a Dash or a 767 you are contributing to the same bottom line.

But we were always looked down on by mainline. I remember coming back to BWI from CLT on a mainline flight. I happened to be in uniform while walking down the jetway towards a couple flight attendants and the pilots talking at the doorway. One of the flight attendants saw me and started to say something and the other looked at her and said, " Oh....he's just Express". And with a wave of her hand they then went back to thier conversation as if I wasn't standing right there. Ouch. Not even a "Hey, how's it going?" from the pilot.

Oh well...sorry for the rant. My point I guess is that as much as you feel that you should have the first right at those RJ's I feel the pilot's at the WO's should have had first crack at a slot when U was hiring. They should also be the ones recieveing the RJ's. They earned it with decades of commitment to the success of USAir.

Now ALPA pilots with with seniority that ranges up to 20+ years of dedicated service to USAirways are going to loose thier jobs so mainline furloughees can fly an airplane that they didn't want to fly if the circumstances were different.

As they say...just my opinion.

Cheers....
 
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chillidawg

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hang in there

I feel for you guys. Even in the worst of situations, something positive will happen. Hopefully sooner, rather than later. I wish you all the best.
-ChilliD
 

InclusiveScope

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Can any ALG pilot please post the VARS message from 5/30. I listened to it and think it needs to be read by everyone involved. The "rest of the story" if you will. Thanks in advanced and hang tough WO pilots.

InclusiveScope
www.rjdefense.com
 

skydiverdriver

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I'm sure they could come up with a solution that benefits BOTH the furloughed mainline guys as well as the regionals that are owned. All it takes is for someone to try to come up with something.
 

pappy

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InclusiveScope-

Ask for and you shall receive-

HELLO, THIS IS THE ALLEGHENY MEC CODE A PHONE FOR MAY 30, 2002.



THE DELAY IN RECORDING THIS ANNOUNCEMENT WAS DUE TO THE COMPANY’S MEETING WITH THE NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE YESTERDAY, AND A SUBSEQUENT MEC CONFERENCE CALL LAST NIGHT.



THE MIXED MESSAGES SURROUNDING US AIRWAYS LETTER OF AGREEMENT / EXTORTION 81, CONTINUED TUESDAY MORNING, AT THE MAIN LINE ROAD SHOW HELD AT THE PHILADELPHIA AIRPORT MARIOTT. IN ATTENDANCE FROM ALLEGHENY WERE MEC CHAIRMAN REZA OSTADALI, GRIEVANCE CHAIRMAN RICK O’LEARY, AND SEVERAL ALLEGHENY PILOTS, ALONG WITH SEVERAL HUNDRED AIRWAYS EMPLOYEES. THE HOUR LONG PRESENTATION, FOLLOWED BY A QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION, WAS GIVEN BY AIRWAYS PRESIDENT AND CEO DAVID SIEGEL, WHO OUTLINED AIRWAYS’ ABYSMAL FINANCIAL CONDITION AND IT’S OPERATIONAL DYSFUNCTION, PARTICULARLY WITH REGARD TO IT’S LACK OF REGIONAL JET FEED. MR. SIEGEL OFFERED THE FOLLOWING STATISTICS REGARDING REGIONAL JET OPERATION BY AIRWAYS COMPETITORS. THESE NUMBERS REFLECT NOT ONLY CURRENTLY OPERATED REGIONAL JETS, BUT ALSO FIRM ORDERS FOR ADDITIONAL AIRCRAFT. CONTINENTAL EXPRESS: 374 DELTA: 930 AMERICAN AIRLINES: 393. AND US AIRWAYS, A DISTANT LAST, WITH ONLY 70 RJS CURRENTLY BEING FLOWN BY CONTRACT CARRIERS, AND IF LOA 81 IS EVER APPROVED BY THE ALPA PRESIDENT, AN ADDITIONAL 70 RJS WHO’S OPERATORS REMAIN UNKNOWN, HOWEVER MR. SIEGEL STATED THAT IT WAS HIS DESIRE TO PLACE THEM AT POTOMAC, AND STAFF THEM WITH AIRWAYS FURLOUGHEES.





AT THE START OF THE QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION THAT FOLLOWED THE PRESENTATION, CAPTAIN OSTADALI EXPRESSED HIS DISPLEASURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT, REGARDING COMMENTS MR. SIEGEL HAD MADE AT PREVIOUS ROAD SHOWS, WITH REFERENCE TO THE WHOLLY OWNED PILOTS ABILITY TO OPERATE REGIONAL JETS, AND THE SUPPOSED TECHNICAL SUPERIORITY OF AIRWAYS PILOTS. HE WENT ON TO GIVE THE ROOM AN OVERVIEW OF THE NEGATIVE ASPECTS OF LOA 81, AND WHY IT WAS UNFAIR TO THE ALLEGHENY PILOT GROUP. IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION POSED TO HIM BY CAPTAIN OSTADALI, MR. SIEGEL, CHARACTERIZED PIEDMONT’S COUNTER OFFER TO LOA 81 AS QUOTE: INADEQUATE, UN QUOTE, AND STATED THAT AIRWAYS HAD COME CLOSE TO MAKING A DEAL WITH PSA, HOWEVER THEY DIDN’T QUOTE: DELIVER WITH RATES END QUOTE, AND HE CHIDED ALLEGHENY FOR REFUSING TO EVEN COME TO THE TABLE. CAPTAIN OSTADALI THEN MADE IT CLEAR TO MR. SIEGEL THAT THE ALLEGHENY MEC HAD MERELY REJECTED LOA 81 IN IT’S CURRENT FORM, AND IT WAS NOT OPPOSED TO COMING TO THE TABLE WITH ALL OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED, IN AN EFFORT TO REACH A FAIR AND EQUITABLE SOLUTION TO THE JETS FOR JOBS PROGRAM, BUT TO SIMPLY BE PROVIDED A DOCUMENT AND TOLD TO TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT, WAS, AND IS, ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.



OTHER AIRWAYS WORK GROUPS TOOK THEIR TURN QUESTIONING SIEGEL, EXPRESSING THEIR DISPLEASURE WITH PROPOSED PENSION CUTS TO CURRENT WORKERS AND RETIREES. MR. SIEGEL WAS ASKED BY A RAMP EMPLOYEE WHAT AIRWAYS MANAGEMENT’S FINANCIAL PARTICIPATION IN THE CONCESSIONS WOULD BE, AND HIS RESPONSE WAS MET FIRST, WITH JEERS AND BOOS, THEN THE WALKOUT OF 60 DISGRUNTLED EMPLOYEES. LATER AS THE MEETING ADJOURNED, MR. SIEGEL WAS ASKED WHY HE WOULDN’T SIMPLY ADD MORE THAN 70 ADDITIONAL RJS, TO WHICH RESPONDED: QUOTE: “THAT’S ALL THEY’LL LET ME HAVE” END QUOTE, (A REMARK WHICH CUTS TO THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM AT AIRWAYS: SCOPE LANGUAGE, DESTRUCTIVELY EMPLOYED, HAS BROUGHT THE COMPANY TO IT’S KNEES.) THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER RAN A STORY ON THE PHL MEETING IN IT’S MAY 29TH EDITION’S BUSINESS SECTION, WHICH MAY BE ACCESSED ON LINE AT WWW.PHILLY.COM.



IT IS IMPORTANT TO RECALL THAT AIRWAYS FIRST LOA 81 RELATED OFFER, WHICH REQUIRED THAT 100% OF NEW RJ JOBS WERE TO BE GIVEN TO AIRWAYS FURLOUGHEES, WAS MADE TO ANYONE WHO WOULD LISTEN; FROM THE WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARIES TO THE CHEAPEST NON-UNION CARRIERS, AND WAS SOUNDLY REJECTED. DEVOID OF ANY REGARD FOR THE QUALITY OF JOBS THEY APPEARED TO ATTEMPT TO SECURE, THE AIRWAYS MEC AND NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE MADE THE ROUNDS. CONTRARY TO ALPA NATIONAL’S STATED GOAL TO RAISE THE BAR OF WAGES AND BENEFITS, THEY OPENLY SOLICITED CARRIERS WITH THE WORST PAY SCALES AND WORK RULES IN THE INDUSTRY. NEXT WAS THE 50% PLAN, WHICH MET THE SAME FATE.



A NUMBER OF WEEKS AGO, LOA 81 SURFACED AGAIN, THE ONLY SUBSTANTIVE DIFFERENCE BEING, THAT THIS TIME IT HAD BEEN ALLEGEDLY SIGNED BY AIRWAYS MANAGEMENT, AND THE AIRWAYS NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE, YET NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO PRODUCE A COPY OF THE DOCUMENT.



NOW TO REPORT ON THE EVENTS OF YESTERDAY’S MEETING WITH THE COMPANY. MEC CHAIRMAN REZA OSTADALI, THE NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE, OUR ALPA ATTORNEY AND ALPA FINANCIAL ANALYST, MET WITH ALLEGHENY PRESIDENT KEITH HOUK, DIRECTOR OF FLIGHT OPERATIONS MICHAEL SCROBOLA, AND THE COMPANY ATTORNEY, AND WERE PRESENTED WITH A NUMBER OF PROPOSED CONCESSIONS. CONCESSIONS THAT ALLEGEDLY REPRESENT OUR SHARE OF THE COST SAVINGS WE ARE TO BEAR, TO AID IN THE MAIN LINE’S APPLICATION FOR A $1 BILLION DOLLAR FEDERAL LOAN.



THE COMPANY’S PROPOSAL SUGGESTS THAT WE AGREE TO IMMEDIATE REDUCTIONS TO OUR CURRENT DASH EIGHT PAY SCALES, REDUCED 401K PARTICIPATION BY THE COMPANY, FREEZING OF THE PENSION PLAN, THE REDUCTION OF OUR CURRENT PER DIEM RATE, THE REDUCTION OF OUR CURRENT SICK LEAVE ACCRUAL, AND AN INCREASE IN HEALTH PLAN PREMIUMS. THE EXACT NUMBERS OF THESE PROPOSED GIVE BACKS MAY BE OBTAINED FROM YOUR LOCAL COUNCIL REPRESENTATIVES.



OUR REQUEST FOR ALL OF THE FINANCIAL DATA RELEVANT TO ALLEGHENY AIRLINES INC, HAS YET TO BE HONORED. UNTIL SUCH TIME THAT WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMINE THAT DATA, THE MEC CANNOT CONSIDER ANY PROPOSAL.



LOCAL COUNCILS WILL BE HOLDING INFORMATIONAL MEETINGS IN THE NEXT DAYS AND WEEKS TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES. BE SURE TO CHECK THIS HOTLINE FOR THE LATEST INFORMATION.



COMAIR HAS IMPLEMENTED A PREFERENTIAL INTERVIEW PLAN FOR FURLOUGHED ALG PILOTS. CHECK OUR WEBSITE FOR APPLICATION DETAILS. THE MEC WISHES TO THANK COMAIR MEC CHAIRMAN JC LAWSON, AND THE ENTIRE COMAIR MEC FOR THEIR CONSIDERATION.


Pappy

Furloughed from AAA 12/01
Furloughed from ALG 06/02
Next???
 

skeezer

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Solution

Here's my solution:

Give Mid Atlantic 70 RJ's and get most of the Mainline guys and gals off furlough. Once that is agreed to, have the mainline MEC get rid of their g$dd$mned archaic scope language and let the WO's swap their current fleet for RJ's 1 for 1. Mainline pilots get to fly again, and the US airways passengers are happy because they don't see a big spinny thing on each wing.

Yeah, if you add 70 aircraft to Express (at Mid Atlantic) that would mean that the WO's would lose some routes. But if that is spread around then that's better than losing them all as our leases expire. Heck, why not use some of the new RJ's to feed Mainline out west where we suck. That way nobody loses a job and we grow.

This way we can all share (mainline and expres) in the pain that is US Airways, and it is not one group that gets all the shafting.

Just my opinion.

Skeezer
 

scouts out!

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Solution for US Air group

Stop contracting out US Air flying to mesa, t-states, colgan and Chat... Why expand them when we need to preserve the jobs here within US Air group. Stop the contract carriers expansion and preserve jobs here (PDT, ALG, PSA and Mainline)
 

sleepy

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Re: Solution for US Air group

scouts out! said:
Stop contracting out US Air flying to mesa, t-states, colgan and Chat... Why expand them when we need to preserve the jobs here within US Air group. Stop the contract carriers expansion and preserve jobs here (PDT, ALG, PSA and Mainline)

Look no further than the bottom line and you will see why they continue to contract this flying out: Mesa and their kind will work less!
 

TWA69

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I think that Midatlantic is a good idea if, and only if you preserve jobs. If you are bringing mainline jobs back then the people at the WO's should not be furloughed. it's not right to furlough one group so you can provide jobs to another. Just my 2 cents.
 

fatburger

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Here's an idea--

The 3 WO's already have a combined seniority list. Why not combine the Furloughess and the 3 WO's into one list under MAA?
Then we have the elusive flow through to mainline and all WO furloughees are recalled.

Before you blast me, let's look at a couple of things:

Both sides can make a case for who's been flying who's routes till the cows come home. I'm tired of it. What's done is done!!

ALPA and U management dropped the ball years ago by not negotiating rj's and a flow through. We all know this!!

Sept. 11th changed a lot of things in this industry.

Dave Siegel has said "We are getting out of the turboprop business!"

If we know these things already, why can't we work towards a solution that takes care of the mainline furloughees and the WO's at the same time. I'd rather see jets go to the WO's rather than the contract carriers. Whether we like it or not, we are all in a very tough situation with little bargaining power against management. We know what they want to do so let's be proactive and try to work this mess out so everying can have a job and a future.

Fatburger
 

Tim47SIP

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I'm cornfused?
Two years ago, mainline sued US management for the starting of Patomac due to the fact that US management was creating an alter ego airline. The courts ruled against management and Patomac was dropped. Why doesn't the WO's sue US management in the same fashion as this is against their contract.

AJWick- "However, I hope you understand that as a furloughed mainline guy, I should have some rights to fly an RJ. For is it fair to grow the regionals wholly owned or not, and have mainline guys on the streets? just the flip side of the coin. thats all."

You Sir need a wake up call! Two wrongs dont make a wright. I fully aggree that you should be flying something for mainline or the WO, but not at the expense of your fellow pilots. Taking their place on the line because you think the flying is yours, is flat wrong. Any route that the company takes from mainline and transferes to the WO's is a different story as I fully understand that the company will grow the RJ fleet at the expense of the mainline guys - This should be stopped.

The us mainline guys with their screwed up scope has helped (not the sole problem, but one of the main problems) bring down US as a company and they still wont budge. Remember, these are the smart guys, the ones with the degrees (obviously no regional guy can have a degree-matter of fact, I can't think of one individual where I work that dosn't have a degree - I guess that MAS on my diploma really stands for Must Act Stupid!). I guess they havent figured out how to take the blinders off of thier faces.

I just hope that the rest of the industry pays close attention to what is happening here so they know what not to do. This has got to be one of the most blatently dishonest and unprofessional things I have ever witnessed other than the last administration.
 

chillidawg

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Question

Tim-
As you stated: "...as I fully understand that the company (USAir) will grow the RJ fleet at the expense of the mainline guys - this should be stopped."

Do you mean that the company should not get anymore RJ's for the benefit of the mainline guys? Or do you mean that management get more RJ's and have mainline (and WO's possibly) fly them?

IMHO, RJ's are going to be part of the commercial airline future. Like it or not.

-ChilliD
 

Tim47SIP

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I mean that any flying mainline is loosing to the WO's should stay in mainline and new RJ's can be flow by them. Any feeder routes that the WO's were flying should stay with them, not be replaced by mainline guys. Instead of me for me and all for me, how about one for all and all for one.
 

AJWick

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Hey Tim

I agree with you. What I meant by having rights to fly the RJS is simply that I too should have the opportunity to fly but not at the expense of our wholly owned furloughees.

But all for one and one for all doesnt seem to be the case at ALPA.
Mainline or Regional.

I am still disappointed that Comair is giving preferential hiring to the usair express w/o furloughees. Why not all the alpa furloughees? Just curious? Did the comair guys forget that we alpa members helped with the strike fund and offered jumpseat priviledges during their time? Hey it may not have been much but it was some kind gesture we offered and I was hoping the favour would be returned.

Good Luck to us all. :cool:
 

Tim47SIP

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AJWick wrote:
"I am still disappointed that Comair is giving preferential hiring to the usair express w/o furloughees. Why not all the alpa furloughees? Just curious? Did the comair guys forget that we alpa members helped with the strike fund and offered jumpseat priviledges during their time? Hey it may not have been much but it was some kind gesture we offered and I was hoping the favour would be returned. "

I think It's a little more complicated than that. First, Comair guys are very greatfull to you guys for all of your support. I know I would be. Second, I am sure Comair would hire you in a heart beat, but I am not sure that you would want to give up your seniority number. All of those guys at the WO's that are getting hired are giving up their seniority numbers to fly for Comair. I also know that this is the same requirement here at ASA with the exception of the Delta guys as we are all basically Delta.

Comair probably figures that the mainline furloughed guys would not want to give up thier number and thus not solicit any of them. Additionally, no one really knows how long this slump will last, could be only a few more months or even years. But it would be feasibly uneconomical (as you already know) to train mainline guys just to loose them in the near future. Maybe an agreement to stay three years at Comair and then go back or something like that would help. But as you know, that is probably not in ALPA's agenda to try to negotiate with management. Probably worth a try, dont you think! Tim.;)
 
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skydiverdriver

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Rj's are not the future of commercial aviation, they are it's present. USAirways is a bit behind on this, due to myopic scope limits in it's mainline contract. The reason Delta is doing so well is because they had, until recently, no numerical limit on rj's. Now, whoever restricts rj's may end up like USAir. Whoever embraces them, will be the winner, and have more jobs for EVERYONE.
 
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