US FO sticks it to FA's

[rajflyboy]

If their was ice on the wings the FA's did a great thing saving all those people from possible death.

If I'm riding in the back and I see ice on the wings and not going through deicing >> then your gonna see something happen real quick.

Thats not acceptable

 

[DAL737FO]

I hate lawyers and I wouldn' t personally sue but I wasn't the FO called on the carpet because 3 FA's thought they knew the job better than I did.

How many of you really think that the FO would take the aircraft off in a dangerous condition? Remember we are the first ones to arrive at the scene of the accident.

I would also like to know what time of day this happened. The person doing the walk around has the best view of the surfaces to be deiced. I've had to look more than once at wings that have roughed paint on top of the wing because I thought it was frost.

If you read that Phoenix times article it talks about how one of the flight attendants had survived a crash that was due to lack of de icing. Do you think that she would be spring loaded to de ice regardless of the actual conditions. Just because it was cold does not mean you have to deice.

Finally the FAA investigated the claim and cleared the cockpit crew of any wrong doing. Additionally it came out that the cabin crew lied about passenger concerns of the wing icing.


I imagine the cockpit conversation went something like this:

Capt: The lead FA has a concern about wing icing.
FO: The airplane is good to go.
Capt: The FO says it's good to go.
Lead FA: I see ice. I have 30 years of flying (riding) I know ice on a wing when I see it. I survived a crash don't you know that!
Capt: FO is the wing good or not.
FO: Yes.
Lead FA: The passengers have indicated concerns about ice on the wing (lie).
Capt: Go back and look at the wing again.
FO: (while walking back grumbling) well now we have to deice just to cover our a$$ (read because the passengers want to see the plane sprayed to make them feel better and because the Flight Attendant hinted that we should get deiced)

Airplane is now deiced. No one can ever prove whether it actually needed it or not.

"The FAA rep asked Walker to make a written statement — and asked for statements from Burris and Shunick, too. All three were happy to comply.
But without thinking of the ramifications, they made a mistake. In their statements, they repeated their claim that the passengers had raised the issue of the icy wings.
Later, when the FAA was investigating the matter and summoned the three for sworn testimonies, they would volunteer the truth: They'd made up the passenger concern just because they didn't know how else to get the pilots' attention. The discrepancy in their accounts would later become a major issue."

"We did not take any action against the pilot in the case you referenced," FAA spokesman Ian Gregor wrote me in an e-mail. "I cannot comment on the allegations, other than to say that we were unable to substantiate them. Please note that this does not necessarily mean that we doubted the word of the flight attendants. "It simply means that we were unable to prove the allegations."

 

[~~~^~~~]

The FAA does not have a burden of proof per se'. With an administrative action they can reach a finding on their own without proving up a case.

Changing their story does call into question their credibility about the entire incident. Particularly when they all conspire to tell the same lie.

Again, when did they make the FO the Captain?

I'm wondering if it was a situation where a jet came in from altitude super cooled and was too cold for anything to stick to it. That explains why some airplanes were getting de-iced and this crew INITIALLY did not think it necessary.

 

[BeCareful!]

Either way, any west airplane operated above about 45 degrees latitude is probably an accident waiting to happen :laugh:

Good thing that FA was experienced with ice....probably saved the ex mesa FO's bacon and everyone else's. He should just thank her and move on, but instead he sues. I guess that's the American way these days.

 

[Sioux115]

What I don't understand is that the FO reported in the deposition that he saw a small patch of ice on the right wing. Was that active frost that formed after his walk around? Or is he admitting the flight attendants were correct? If so, he should be thankful he wasn't violated. Especially with the ramper's irregularity report.

 

[vetrider]

Either way, any west airplane operated above about 45 degrees latitude is probably an accident waiting to happen :laugh:

Good thing that FA was experienced with ice....probably saved the ex mesa FO's bacon and everyone else's. He should just thank her and move on, but instead he sues. I guess that's the American way these days.

With a combined 500 years of flying and 50 jillion hours of flight time, that highly experienced east crew should have known not to go right back to the gate after aborting, come on. "Come on, lets getting going, shove her back out..." Phoooooosh.

 

[Carl S.]

Way more to the story than what is in the article! The FAA also had some major back tracking to do when it over stepped it's self with an overly aggresssive female inspector. The media only has part of the story and both side have their versions. Ed's a good guy and the captain retired a few month's after the incident, but who is the final authority( Captain Sully!!!) the PIC!

P.S.- The clowns at USAPA and East pilots have 13 hull losses to back up their flying skills, AWA had 2 hull losses and no KIA in 23 years!

 

[Dizel8]

Either way, any west airplane operated above about 45 degrees latitude is probably an accident waiting to happen :laugh:

You are a sad, sad excuse for a human being, much less a pilot.

 

[glasspilot1]

All I can say is, Wow, what a mess!

Before Air Florida in 1982 deicing procedures were a lot more lax-a-dasical. There was only one type of fluid, there were no holdover times. Heck, engine anti-ice was Capts descretion and for some reason he didn't have it on for his T/O in the snowstorm!

Now (the F/O used these words!) you have to cover your ass! Every time! The F/A's are watching and the PAX are watching now!

A lot of us know if there is a thin (really thin) layer of frost on a small area of the wing that you could load-er up and blast off with no problems at all. But these days (even if it's your last leg and you're going home) you've GOT to cover your butt and order the deice even though with all your experience you know you are pissing away money you don't have to.

 

[St. Nic]

So let me get this straight- The FA's demand the airplane get deiced, the f/o disagrees but gets the plane deiced anyway and the dingbats in the back still call the FAA on him? That's a new definition of vendetta. The flight attendants deserve what is coming to them.

 

[kingair1]

So let me get this straight- The FA's demand the airplane get deiced, the f/o disagrees but gets the plane deiced anyway and the dingbats in the back still call the FAA on him? That's a new definition of vendetta. The flight attendants deserve what is coming to them.

Completely agree. For the FA's to call the FAA like that afterwards is cowardly. We make the decisions up there and that's final. Do the Fa's think we don't want to be safe ???

 

[get2flyin]

Either way, any west airplane operated above about 45 degrees latitude is probably an accident waiting to happen :laugh:

Good thing that FA was experienced with ice....probably saved the ex mesa FO's bacon and everyone else's. He should just thank her and move on, but instead he sues. I guess that's the American way these days.

(sigh) Ever been to Anchorage? Yeah, I didn't think you guys went there. At yet, the West has been going there for some time.

I don't know the FO, but based on what I've read here (*a notably reputable source of journalistic information) he's a d-bag. Doesn't matter WHAT company he works for.

And hey, why are you wasting your time throwing mud on FI? Isn't there a fellow West pilot you're suppose to be suing for not giving up his seat to you or something similar? Keep those checks coming to USAPA. That's going to cover the dues money I'm not responsible for. Thanks!

 

[samballs]

This reminds me of a similiar incident that happened to a friend of mine, back in this regional days. He was flying a newer E145 with still shiny leading edges, when on the approach at night pax were saying he had ice on his wings (OAT being +15C). The next day he got a call from the CP telling him that the FAA had received a complaint. Backseat drivers! Love 'em!

Is the case out of CVG to IAH, if it is please do not defend the pilot, you will look bad

 

[Bringupthebird]

It all comes down to pride. The FA's pride was hurt because her concerns (real or imagined) were dismissed. The F/O's pride was hurt because he felt countermanded by an FA (likely a senior mama know-it-all). The solution should be to hear each other out without prejudice and make a decision that is sound and communicate why you are making the decision.

You can make a million over-conservative decisions but perhaps only one hasty one.

 

[bubbers44]

Sounds like a pissing contest that went out of control.