US Airways, America West in advanced merger talks - WSJ

[satpak77]

so whats the deal....

Is the last hired Cactus Pilot (say, Feb 2005) going to have higher seniority than the highest US Airways pilot?

Who is buying who?

etc

 

[TWA Dude]

Is the last hired Cactus Pilot (say, Feb 2005) going to have higher seniority than the highest US Airways pilot?

Who knows? With the expected fences it probably won't matter anyway.

Who is buying who?

Neither, and it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[satpak77]

Who knows? With the expected fences it probably won't matter anyway.Neither, and it doesn't matter anyway.

thanks

 

[BeCareful!]

For what it's worth (which ain't much), I'm certainly NOT counting RJ as mainline fleet. That would, of course, be silly.

But, you, Mr. m80drvr, mentioned AWA's fleet growth as if it were an indicator of the company's strength, making no mention of US Airways Group's recent accuisitions. That's all. Just trying to keep the comparison fair. U is buying RJ's because that's the tool they think they need. AWA, same thing: buying aircraft they need.

I've never loathed RJ's; in fact, I knew we needed more of them long ago. Furthermore, I've never been fooled by the artificial line placed between an airline and it's subsidieries. Sounds like that's what you are doing, m80drvr: acting like the huge investment U just made in RJ's doesn't count when it comes to evaluating the carrier's strength.

I'm just glad you're not an arbitrator

 

[BeCareful!]

Some of the pilots at MDA are Allegheny and Piedmont pilots do they get a number at the new airline, if so are they ahead of you and I because they are currently flying ????????

Hmmmm. Let me think. I'm ex-mainline and currently flying for PSA as a J4J Captain. I would say: No.

MDA is a commuter airline NOT part of Mainline USAir. Maybe I should count the Mesa Rj's that are operating under AWA.

You got all your facts straight, there, m80? Ever hear a US Airways E170 on the radio? Do they have their own certificate?

Further, there is a huge difference between the fully outsourced AWA regional flying (Mesa) and the wholy owned US Air "commuters." PSA is listed as an asset for U, as is PDT. Many of the CRJ's at PSA are owned (not leased) by US Airways Group. It's one place where they hide the money. Get it?

In any event, it's pretty obvious I don't have the time to educate you; for one, you've got way too many misconceptions and, two, you've already got it all figured out anyway, right?

 

[NAA Pilot]

Will AWA make U sell all of it's rj's as part of the merger. Also, since u is in bankruptcy, is AWA making the judge change any of U's pilot contract? ie. scope, succesorship?

 

[TWA Dude]

NAA Pilot: your questions are very premature and speculative since there's been no agreement reached and it seems doubtful there ever will be. And FWIW the judge shouldn't have to change US's pilot contract since ALPA already has mechanisms to do that.

 

[Cactus73]

Well, yeah, but a fleet of CRJ's roughly half the size of AWA's entire fleet has also been purchased/leased. That's a lot of $$.

US Airways alledged financial weakness is one of the industry's oldest illusions. It's called: good accounting.

When they close the doors and announce Chapter 7 are you going to still call this "good accounting."

I think you may be the only person in the world calling this good accounting. You probably get your FO's to agree with this conspiracy theory just because they are too afraid to tell you what a moron you are. It would make their 4 day even longer.

Airways is in desperate shape. By their own admission they have been shopping for buyers for the last 18 months. The CEO said that the senior managment team could use more time on the golf course.

Airways cash on hand is less than half even owed to the ATSB backed loan.
---is this good accounting?

Revenue is pointless to discuss here when the amount taken in is less than half needed to even run the operation.

Since Mesa is taking delivery of a new CRJ-900 (86 seats) every couple of weeks, I guess we should put them in the mix too?

I wonder how many "good accounting" guys like you were at Eastern, Pan Am, Midway, etc...?

 

[BeCareful!]

Wow, Cactus. Just get off a tough four day?

I rarely discuss this sort of stuff at work, and my FO's are usually too wrapped up in crew scheduling confrontations to even worry about next year. And I hope no one is afraid to tell me anything, as I say it in my brief: If you see me doing anything stupid, tell me I'm doing something stupid!

Really, this Internet medium sucks. I'm not the moron you seem to think I am, but if looking at U Group as a whole and not just the mainline makes you think that, then so be it. You win. Hope your next captain isn't so rough on you.

P.S. So is Mesa now a wholy owned subsidiary of AWA?

 

[TheDonger]

"Good accounting?" Oh man. It's more like grand theft..

 

[Cactus73]

Wow, Cactus. Just get off a tough four day?

I rarely discuss this sort of stuff at work, and my FO's are usually too wrapped up in crew scheduling confrontations to even worry about next year. And I hope no one is afraid to tell me anything, as I say it in my brief: If you see me doing anything stupid, tell me I'm doing something stupid!

Really, this Internet medium sucks. I'm not the moron you seem to think I am, but if looking at U Group as a whole and not just the mainline makes you think that, then so be it. You win. Hope your next captain isn't so rough on you.

P.S. So is Mesa now a wholy owned subsidiary of AWA?

Not a bad four day. Got all the inlaws in town this week and weekend.

Sorry I went off, not usually my style.

I have flown with guys that think everything in this business is an accounting scandal and that the airlines are really making money hand over fist. If it weren't for a good fuel hedge AWA and SWA would have lost money. Unhedged carriers like US Airways, Delta, Continental, etc...really are paying street prices for gas these days.

The fact is, something has to give in this industry. I believe Airways is the weakest airline out there and it isn't crazy accounting. I didn't mean to call you a moron personally but the type of person (conspiracy theory) types that think like morons.

Yes, the PSA's, Piedmont's, Mid Atlantic are on your balance sheets just as our cost plus guaranteed profit for Mesa is a cash cow for Ornstien. It's not really a game, however, as anyone can read the annual reports and SEC filings and see that they are doing this stuff right out in the open.

Airway's management, like most of the industry, can't seem to think of any way to get more revenue (like raising ticket prices) so they just go to labor because we are an easy target. At AWA, our labor costs are already so low that our managment has gone out and raised ticket prices on our peak days and we actually had the highest RASM's in our history. Just for doing this they are now somehow regarded as the sharpest managment team in the business behind Southwest.

So back to the original topic - without some sort of savior - Airway's seems to be headed for Chapter 7 and it isn't and by way of "good accounting."

I can be a moron too, don't feel bad. I think I'm a moron just for wanting to get in this business in the first place.

 

[G4G5]

FDJ2

I leave you with the last word.


G4G5
Someone else was asking me about this and it struck me that I never corrected your BS. So here you go

just go down to the background "FACTS"
http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=2nd/999359.html

The existing Delta pilots had to protect their own turf. They were understandably concerned that the APA and the integration of Pan Am pilots would dilute their own status on the Delta seniority list. After extensive analysis of the impact of various integration methodologies, Delta and ALPA eventually agreed on a "modified status ratio methodology" that would spread Pan Am pilots equitably throughout Delta's seniority list.

The starting point for the integration was the position held by the most senior Delta pilot of whatever aircraft was deemed to be most nearly equivalent to the A-310. Delta deemed its Boeing 767ER ("B-767ER") to be most equivalent to the A-310 because both were long-haul twin-engine aircraft, although the B-767ER was not cleared for over-ocean voyages. Delta's most senior B-767ER pilot occupied spot #590. Thereafter, the methodology separately integrated the Pan Am captains, first officers and flight engineers, according to a ratio based on the number of comparable positions expected to exist at Delta, in the absence of the APA, as of the end of 1992.2 Thus, the formula called for dividing the number of Delta captain positions (at B-767ER captain level and below) anticipated to exist as of the end of 1992 - that is, 3,360 - by the number of Pan Am captains eventually hired by Delta - 286. This resulted in a ratio of approximately twelve to one. Thus, one Pan Am captain was integrated after every twelve spots beneath #590 - at #603, #616, #629, #641 and so on. After all the Pan Am captains had been integrated, the Delta first officers and flight engineers were then ratioed with their acquired Pan Am counterparts, resulting in one Pan Am position being created after each ten or eleven Delta positions throughout the remainder of the seniority list.

While the modified status ratio methodology gave the acquired Pan Am pilots enhanced bidding seniority vis-a-vis new hires, it also resulted in placing many former Pan Am pilots in spots below Delta pilots with less cockpit experience. Thus, once they moved over to Delta, several Pan Am pilots were relegated to cockpit positions, aircraft, and routes less desirable than those they had flown at Pan Am. For example, some 55-year-old Pan Am pilots found themselves flying in positions junior to 35-year-old pilots who had been with Delta their entire career. However, the Pan Am pilots were integrated in seniority order - that is, within the integrated seniority list, and thus, Pan Am pilots maintained their seniority relative to other Pan Am pilots.

On August 30, 1991, Delta and ALPA entered into a supplemental collective bargaining agreement authorizing Delta to implement the modified status ratio methodology to integrate the Pan Am pilots into the Delta seniority list on November 1, 1991, the same day that the final aspects of the acquisition were scheduled to close.

Agreed to by the DALALPA MEC:
When Delta offered employment to the Pan Am pilots, it did so at their pre-existing Pan Am pay rates with scheduled incremental increases to parity with Delta's pay scale spread out over three years

The DAL MEC came up with the seniority intergration and 3 year financial screwing! Or would you suggest that the Pan Am ALPA MEC devised their own intergration?