US Air To Address Investor Concerns

[waveflyer]

How much did the USAir East guys militantly guarding a DOH merger derail the United proposed merger in 2000? I need some education.

 

[weasel_lips]

I need some education.

Better look somewhere else for that.

 

[UALjan15]

How much did the USAir East guys militantly guarding a DOH merger derail the United proposed merger in 2000? I need some education.

I wouldn't say it was much of a factor. IMHO, labor didn't doom that merger. In simple terms, Goodwin and his team were outnegotiated by Wolf & friends, and it didn't take long for buyer's remorse to set in. Sixty bucks a share was an absolutely appalling figure at the time, and the deal would have sent them all into BK (oh wait....that happened anyway!). To address your original thought, the UAL pilots were not looking forward to the integration, and their displeasure became part of the "summer of love," but to say that it derailed the merger gives us pilot pawns way too much credit.

 

[reepicheep]

The merger was dropped for a host of reasons, not the least of which was the UAL pilots' reluctance to enter the deal - mostly not wanting the usair millstone around their necks. USAir pilots asking "what does my DOH hold in SFO" and "when does my 777 class start" didn't exactly endear them to the UAL group.

But aside from this there was an almost immediate and strong political backlash to the proposed deal that only gained momentum with time. And then the industry started to hit tough times and UAL began losing money and the deal just didn't seem worth it anymore.

 

[IronCityBlue]

the 190 is flown by us airways mainline

So was the 170.

 

[get2flyin]

So was the 170.

No, I believe that was flown by the elite "Embraer Division". Not by mainline.

 

[sonny320]

No, I believe that was flown by the elite "Embraer Division". Not by mainline.

Was MidAtlantic which was on the same operating certificate as mainline UsAir. Flown by furloughed mainline pilots at Embraer rates.

 

[get2flyin]

Was MidAtlantic which was on the same operating certificate as mainline UsAir. Flown by furloughed mainline pilots at Embraer rates.

"Furloughed mainline" pilots are not the same as "mainline" pilots.

Put on your helmets everyone....here we go again!:bomb:

 

[cactusboy53]

Was MidAtlantic which was on the same operating certificate as mainline UsAir. Flown by furloughed mainline pilots at Embraer rates.

Well, that statement says it all. It doesn't matter who paid the fuel bill, who paid the leases, etc. The pilots that flew these aircraft were furloughed mainline pilots. These pilots could not bid back to A320's, B737's, A330's, etc. Only when they were recalled back to the mainline carrier could they then bid back to this equipment.

 

[IronCityBlue]

"Furloughed mainline" pilots are not the same as "mainline" pilots.

They were not furloughed USAir pilots, they were USAir pilots. The planes were on the USAirways operating certificate. Call sign was USAirways. The pilots were on the USAirways pilot seniority list. MidAtlantic was 100% USAirways just like Ted is 100% United and Song was 100% Delta. The 170 was a mainline aircraft flying on the mainline with mainline pilots.

It was sold off at a later point during bankruptcy and that flying was permitted to be outsourced at that time. Then all the Jets-for-jobs crap started happening which I suspect is why you may be confused about the issue.

My point was (still is) that the 170 was a mainline aircraft operated by mainline pilots at one time. Now it is not. The 190 is, for right now. There will be a lot of pressure from management (*jingle, jingle* here's some widebody candy! come on now! dassa good widdle pilot! now just sign this widdle LOA and all your dweams will come twue!) to purge the 190 from the mainline. But its up to the pilots regarding if they will allow that. They did before (170) however they are in a stronger position now than they were then, so we shall see.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Well, that statement says it all. It doesn't matter who paid the fuel bill, who paid the leases, etc. The pilots that flew these aircraft were furloughed mainline pilots. These pilots could not bid back to A320's, B737's, A330's, etc. Only when they were recalled back to the mainline carrier could they then bid back to this equipment.

How can they be furloughed USAir pilots when they are flying USAir planes and getting paychecks by USAirways? And not all of them were furloughed. About 40 or 50 of them went to the 170 without a single day of unemployment or even a furlough notice. Yet Nicolau labeled them as furloughed as well. That is one of the strongest cases they have at getting the award revisited. While arbitration is final, the arbitrator has to be correct in the methodology he lays out. He said staple the furloughed pilots at that time because they didn't bring a job to the table. Fine, fair or not that was his decision. But many of those pilots were never furloughed.

 

[get2flyin]

How can they be furloughed USAir pilots when they are flying USAir planes and getting paychecks by USAirways?

But many of those pilots were never furloughed.

Could they bid the Airbus if they wanted to fly it instead?

Also, out of curiosity..where did the FOs come from? Were they on the regular list or did they come from the street?

 

[m80drvr]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you can bid off Ted or Song if your seniority can hold it. The MDA guys could NOT bid off the 170, AND it was operated with the FULL understanding of the pilots that they were NOT active usair pilots, they were working for a wholly owned subsidiary like ALG or PDT. It is only after the fact that you want to change history. Kind of like the seniority “do over” the east is looking for. Apple does not fall far from the tree I guess.

If the MDA pilots were getting Usair longevity for MDA time I, and many other pilots would have taken a position there BUT it was clearly spelled out that the pilots were NOT active USAir pilots.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you can bid off Ted or Song if your seniority can hold it. The MDA guys could NOT bid off the 170...

This is one of the reasons for the ongoing lawsuit, it was a recall to mainline but was not treated as such...

 

[get2flyin]

This is one of the reasons for the ongoing lawsuit, it was a recall to mainline but was not treated as such...

If it wasn't treated as such...why did the guys go back?

 

[IronCityBlue]

Kind of like the seniority “do over” the east is looking for. Apple does not fall far from the tree I guess.

If the MDA pilots were getting Usair longevity for MDA time I, and many other pilots would have taken a position there BUT it was clearly spelled out that the pilots were NOT active USAir pilots.

The MD pilots were USAir pilots and many were maxed out on longevity in the first place. As for being able to "bid off it" that always depends on if there are are open positions available and if there is any kind of training freeze.

Many airline impose a 2 or 3 year freeze for training. Some exmpt new hires, others not. So is a pilot under a freeze, of any length, not a "real pilot" of that airline?

And as far as your little apple comment goes, you're way off base. I always thought there was no way east should have gotten DOH because DOH had nothing to do with anything logical. But calling pilots furloughed during a time when they never were furloughed and actively flying USAir planes with USAir call sign on the USAir certificate with pilots from the USAir seniority list is insane. I personally think the Nic award will stand, but there may be 40 or 50 exceptions who do indeed get the "do over" because the original award categorized them incorrectly.

 

[m80drvr]

The MD pilots were USAir pilots and many were maxed out on longevity in the first place. As for being able to "bid off it" that always depends on if there are are open positions available and if there is any kind of training freeze.

That statment is a COMPLETE FABRICATION. As an MDA hire you could NEVER, I repeat NEVER bid off the 170. To get back to mainline you had to be recalled, got through MAINLINE indoc and mainline aircraft training.

Many airline impose a 2 or 3 year freeze for training. Some exmpt new hires, others not. So is a pilot under a freeze, of any length, not a "real pilot" of that airline?


So are you saying that after your two or three year MDA "freeze" that you would be able to bid the 76 if their was an opening? I'll save you the typing.....NO you couldn't.

And as far as your little apple comment goes, you're way off base. I always thought there was no way east should have gotten DOH because DOH had nothing to do with anything logical. But calling pilots furloughed during a time when they never were furloughed and actively flying USAir planes with USAir call sign on the USAir certificate with pilots from the USAir seniority list is insane. I personally think the Nic award will stand, but there may be 40 or 50 exceptions who do indeed get the "do over" because the original award categorized them incorrectly.

You took the MDA job knowing that it was not usair mainline. I believe it was clearly spelled out in the LOA that allowed MDA. I and many others did not go to MDA because we read the LOA, so we went elsewhere. So should we get longevity also because you want the rules changed? Unfortunately Nic looked at ALL the information and decided that due to the LOA and the very structure of MDA that you were indeed furloughed. Read the transcripts....oh I forgot the east MEC won't post them.

Please enlighten me as to how USAir was furloughing AND hiring at the same time? What do we do with the people like ALG flyer? He NEVER flew a mainline aircraft yet he wants longevity equal to a furloughed pilot that didn't go to MDA. Should he be senior to a furloughed pilot that took a corporate job KNOWING full well that MDA time did NOT add to mainline seniority. Where should he go in relation to a west pilot? Should he go in front of 2 or three hundred West pilots that did not fly for a WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY?

 

[ALGFLYR]

If it wasn't treated as such...why did the guys go back?

That's part of the problem... If more knew what MDA really was, many more would have come back, especially if they were not prevented from going to MDA under the guise of a hold under J4J.... In the end, I hope all affected will be made whole...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Imagine that....... another case of ALPA getting into trouble over trying to define flying as "mainline" or "regional"......

 

[waveflyer]

The comparison between MDA and Ted & Song is not correct- Ted and Song were re-brandings where united and delta marketed a unique service WITHIN the same company- just a different product like Motorola has razors and Qs. MDA was clearly not that.

Can someone involved answer why usair set up a separate company to fly 170's if it was a "mainline aircraft?

To me it's just another example of pilot's being really stupid. So you're furloughing pilots at the same time that you are creating another company that's going to fly a pretty big jet airliner? AND YOU FELL FOR THAT? YOU LET THAT HAPPEN? That's not a lack of leverage- that's just retarded- USAir pilots need to put down this prideful battle- not b/c they agree- but b/c it's dumb!
I'm sorry- I like most of you i meet- but you have it twisted.

You say the Nic award is UNFAIR under the assumption that our seniority system IS fair.

The truth is that the Nic Award IS Fair under a blatantly unfair&inflexible seniority system that offers no advantage to pilots since de-regulation. You would be MUCH better served using your credibility by fighting for a national list and solve the real issue of our completely inflexible seniority system. You could be very powerful in finally getting a national list. And NOW is a great time for it.

 

[dirkdigler]

The comparison between MDA and Ted & Song is not correct- Ted and Song were re-brandings where united and delta marketed a unique service WITHIN the same company- just a different product like Motorola has razors and Qs. MDA was clearly not that.

I believe you're right. About 8 years ago or so, US Air did have a me-too brand called Metrojet, or something like that. They painted their 200's in red and flew them up and down the east coast. We used to call them Tomato Jet. It was supposed to be like Ted or Song that had all coach class and flown as a part of mainline.

 

[IronCityBlue]

You took the MDA job knowing that it was not usair mainline. I believe it was clearly spelled out in the LOA that allowed MDA. I and many others did not go to MDA because we read the LOA, so we went elsewhere. So should we get longevity also because you want the rules changed? Unfortunately Nic looked at ALL the information and decided that due to the LOA and the very structure of MDA that you were indeed furloughed. Read the transcripts....oh I forgot the east MEC won't post them.

Please enlighten me as to how USAir was furloughing AND hiring at the same time? What do we do with the people like ALG flyer? He NEVER flew a mainline aircraft yet he wants longevity equal to a furloughed pilot that didn't go to MDA. Should he be senior to a furloughed pilot that took a corporate job KNOWING full well that MDA time did NOT add to mainline seniority. Where should he go in relation to a west pilot? Should he go in front of 2 or three hundred West pilots that did not fly for a WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY?

MDA was different from what most consider a WOS like Comair, ASA (at the time), Eagle (for now), etc. Mainline certificate, call sign, dispatch, etc. Management's trechery and ALPA's indifference with regards to what is allowed to be outsourced aside, its not outsourcing when its insourced. Pay, fences and cross fleet biddability included. Oh and I never worked for MDA, so you don't have it all figured out. You are right about one thing though. USAirways was most certainlly not furloughing and hiring at the same time. That's my point. Not sure how or why you think its yours, but I'm glad we agree.