UPT Checkride busts

[Pistlpetet]

UPT is no differnet then going thru a Part 141 training program. If you bust one of those checkrides there is nothing on your record unless it was for a license. Like the saying goes....Nice/honest guys finish LAST.

 

[firstthird]

Pistlpetet "Nice/honest guys finish LAST."

I guess we'll have to disagree on that one. That is what the thread boils down to though, own up to it or use some rationale to say it doesn't count. IMO.

Airlines are looking more for integrity than they are for the next 'ace of the base' who never failed a checkride. Do they always find it? No.

To be clear, I'm sure that thousands of guys have busted a checkride in UPT and answered no to this question and never had a problem with it. I'm also equally sure that there are a few who had some explaining to do in an interview and really, really wish they had answered yes.

Has anyone ever lost an airline job because they failed a UPT checkride? I doubt it, but maybe. Then again, would you really want to work for that company.

Has anyone ever tanked an interview because the interviewer, rightly or wrongly, felt that they had 'caught out' the interviewee in an untruth. Undoubtedly. Almost any mistake/error in the past can be a non-issue if you have a good lesson you learned from it and it is far enough in the past (bigger the mistake, farther back it should be, ideally). But there is almost no way to recover from an interviewer even beginning to doubt your honesty, so just don't put yourself in the situation where it might happen.

 

[RedDogC130]

Here is the question...Is failing a PROGRESS CHECK the same as failing a CHECKRIDE? Please answer YES or NO

FOR THE RECORD MY answer is NO

UPT events are progress checks not checkrides...

 

[TonyC]

These airlines are asking me if I have ever busted a checkride on the applications...

I've read the threads, read the opinions, contemplated the different views, and believe I have reached my opinion on the matter. I don't recall completing an application that asked about checkrides, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't asked about them at my interview.

The application is not a test of integrity, it is a vehicle for the applicant to convey to the prospective employer his qualifications and skills. If the Box is checked YES for a T-37 Mid-Phase, it will count against the candidate with the same weight as another applicant's ATP bust. I do not believe that is the intent of the application. If I were filling out an application and the only busts I have had were UPT checkrides, unless it was the final checkride that also produced the first Form 8, I would answer NO.

On the other hand, if I were asked during an interview, "Have you ever busted a checkride?" I would answer, "Well, I don't think you'd consider it a checkride, but I did have a similar experience. During Air Force pilot training, we had progress rides that we called checkrides, and I really embarrassed myself on one of those." Now, we all know you're supposed to just answer the question, and don't volunteer more information than is needed. In other words, if the question is, "Have you lived in Boondocks all your life?" you answer, "Yes, I have." There's no need to go into your life story, a list of your addresses and girlfriends, your favorite pizza place, and the place where you got your first kiss. So, I'd leave it at that unless I got some signal from the interviewer's body language or a followup question before I expounded on the stupid thing you did on the Mid-Phase.



As an aside... I got to thinking about the first Form 8 thing... when I completed UPT, the Form 8 check was the T-38 Instrument Check. It was a 2-leg cross country, mission-planned, filed, and flown. I busted mine before I left Base Ops. England AFB has a VOR/DME, not a TACAN. I filed to the VOR/DME (the VOR Freq and DME Channel were both listed on the chart, I just used the DME channel instead of a TACAN channel). The T-38 needed a TACAN. I fixed the flight plan, flew the sorties, did the instrument work, completed the table-top EPs afterwards, and got scheduled for a 3-hour ground eval with the Squadron Commander the next day. There's not a symbol or depiction on any type of chart or plate that we didn't go over. He was a nice guy about it, and we had a great time. He even taught me the constant bank-angle method of maintaining an arc - - how to compute the appropriate bank angle. Anyway... before the story gets longer... My Form 8 showed an E, with no mention of the bust. My AF 942 shows an E for the ride - - no reference to the UNSAT, or the "event" that I had to accomplish to remedy my deficient mission planning. Given that I technically busted that ride the first time, I wonder if there are any guys that got an UNSAT on their first Form 8, or show an UNSAT on the AF 942.


OK... to review

Application - NO

Interview - use it as an "I learned from that" example




My 2 ¢

 

[Pistlpetet]

Tony,
I agree with your rationale, and I think that is a perfectly acceptable way to go about things.

 

[Floyd R. Turbo]

Wow.... Your check pilot must have had a bad day.... if that was the only downgrade, and he had two whole sorties to let you overcome it, call it a Good and press on.

I had a semi-similar experience at PIT.... Taxiing out on my Nav check, I screwed up the departure briefing and by all rights should have busted right there, but the check pilot (Don Hoover, God bless him) opened his inflight guide and in his best student voice said "Gee sir, I thought we were supposed to do it THIS way...." After a big OOPS, I agreed, then instructed my ASS off all the way to San Angelo and back, and was dangd happy for my one-downgrade Good.

My other semi-amusing (to me, at least) checkride story didn't go as well. Setting up for the straight ahead rejoin on the way to the areas, I completely spaced on whether we were doing it at 200 to get to the areas in a hurry, or 160 to expedite the rejoin. So, I made a quick "say airspeed" call, thinking that that would clear it up. The reply? "As Briefed." Doh! Guess I should have listened better, as I blew past him ("blew past" being a relative term in the Tweet, and "him" being the then Flt CC and now FedEx guy Bob Britton), and then it all went downhill from there. The 88 (with Hoover) was a lot more fun, and we all got a good laugh out of it--funny is funny, even if you happen to be on the receiving end.

If you'd have told me then that I'd fondly remember those days, I probably would have kicked you or at least made a beeline away, but looking back they sure were fun.

Anyway, to get back towards the topic, it's an interview, not a confession. Answer the questions that are asked, no more, and no less. If you can spin it well, more power to you, but don't dig your own grave.

And, getting back to your specific question, I think that until you pass the checkride, whether it is on the first try, or the 88, or the 89, but until you PASS, then a Form 8 or 942 won't be generated, so we all started with a Q-1, although our gradesheets and resumes may have shown Unsats....... Either way, here we are.

 

[volunteer]

I went out the bottom of the area by 100ft during a maneuver on my initial checkride in the tweet. Rest of the ride was perfect but I still busted. I sit the fence as far as disclosure. I think both sides of the argument have merit. When I applied to the airlines, I went conservative and marked 'yes' to the question. It was not mentioned in one interview. I was asked about it in another. They asked me what happened. Then they asked if I thought it was fair. I told them that I thought it was a clean kill. They then asked if I learned anything from it. That was it. I think they wanted to see if I would own it or if I would try to blame it on the CP.

I was offered a job at both places. So, I think the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. Firstthird has a legit point in the fact that if it does get caught, I would prefer to have checked 'yes' and answer the questions that I did, than to go the other route.

 

[Draginass]

Someone mentioned integrity and airline in the same sentence. "Integrity" is not something that American business in general, and airlines, in particular, practice. You can have personal integrity, but corporate integrity is only a PR slogan. After working for two bottom-feeders and one legacy, that's been my experience.

 

[RJP]

Tell the truth....it will set you free.

Reddog, how many "progress checks" DID you bust?

There's no need to hide a UPT bust. Talk about it if they bring it up, laugh about rolling off the perch without putting the gear down. Everybody makes mistakes and you apparently got your wings. It's minor.

But then again, I never busted a checkride so what do I know?

 

[RedDogC130]

I deleted this message b/c after reading it came across a little bitter. I stand by my views on the issues. I am done with it. Take care

 

[MRW]

SWA asked if I had ever busted a checkride...Fessed up to UPT, told the story, told the lesson, and interviewer asked if their were any others outside of UPT and that he did not need to know about any others in UPT.

BL: Fess up and make a lesson learned out of it. He didn't care since it was UPT, but if they find it later...is that worth it? This could be your one shot at the last interview for the rest of your life. Don't let it hinge on you avoiding a question on a UPT checkride.

Oh Yeah...I got the call and can't wait to get to the line.

Good luck!!!

 

[RJP]

Reddog, I was just pushing your buttons. Didn't intend for you to have to write a term paper on your UPT 'prog check' bust and the evil FAIP that gave it to ya.

Like I said before, you obviously got your wings so it didn't really matter anyway. Let it go man.

 

[El-Rushbo]

One thing to consider is that military pilots go through MANY more checkrides than our civilian counterparts, therefore suffer from a greater number of potential busts. This is not a level playing field. I personally would match my military training checkrides to the respective civilian equivalent, then only offer information on busted checkrides from that list. All others I would throw out, as a straight civilian trained pilot never had to do these, so why should I be held to them. Kind of my own "military conversion factor" only on checkrides. It is necessary to make it a fair comparison.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Worst case scenario:

The interviewer can tell from your logbook/flight logs that you did certain flights twice and they personally consider this flight a checkride.

If this happens and you didn't disclose it, you could be sunk.


Airlines commonly hire folks that have busted much worse checkrides that the mini-one's in UPT, even those that have flat out crashed an airplane, but they don't tend to hire anyone they suspect of being dishonest.

To me, listing the bust is low risk, not listing it is high risk(although with low probability)...I wouldn't double down with a hard 12.

 

[RedDogC130]

Well, what if you did not have to do the flight over. Getting an UNSAT for a "oral" issue. If it were with the FAA you would have to do the whole thing over. The military...not really the same case. So for your response. I am right not to disclose it. There was never a 2nd ride. Not record of anything that the airline would have access to, even from the info I had given them. For those what have flown in the military and civilian like myself, please vote, are the rides in UPT progress checks or check rides in your mind? Not that it will change anyhing but curious? Thanks...yes I lied and said I was done with it. If someone agrees with me mabye I will leave...I see a trend here, I may be here for awhile