UPT Checkride busts

Vandal

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2002
Posts
347
Total Time
1
These airlines are asking me if I have ever busted a checkride on the applications...I know they are asking about FAA check busts, but do I tell em about when I oversped my landing lights on my Midphase in tweets? Not sure if that counts or not "officially". Would be a good story in the interview, I'm just not sure if its an official bust or not in their eyes.
 

tumbleweed

Active member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Posts
25
Total Time
2500
UPT checkrides....

No....a couple reasons I think why:
1) Not a Form 8 check
2) You were not even a Rated Pilot yet (notice how all your UPT time is listed as Student and there is no individual break-down on the AF Forms printout).


Oversped landing lights....that one always cracked me up! Just get under 135kts and put the suckers back in. Flaps in the break at 200kts is a different story. Got to see that one a few times.....I just wish the Viper had that kind of turn rate.:D

TUMBLEWEED
 

Vingus

Blue Bus Driver
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Posts
174
Total Time
+9,000
I agree that a busted UPT check is not reportable. First of all, the checkpilots are not cerified "Check airman". They are just instructors in a squadron job, mostly made up of FAIPs. The bust does not cause a form 8 to be generated, and none of your UPT checkrides will follow you through your AF carreer.

FIDO!
 

Pistlpetet

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Posts
290
Total Time
-
Besides all that. There is no way they will ever find out! Does not pay to volunteer non-traceable dirty laundry.
 

JimBo480

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Posts
50
Total Time
6000
I agree, don't bring it up. If they ask too specific a question about UPT checkrides, then I would give'm my best song and dance.

I had a friend who busted a formation check in T-38's and went on to work for FedEx. He wasn't going to say anything, but it came up in the interview and he explained it away. I don't think they cared that he didn't give the proper hand signal on a lead change....not to much of that going on in the majors.

Jim in MN
 

firstthird

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
687
Total Time
7000
I respectfully disagree. Do a search, this has been discussed a bunch before, although I'll throw in my two cents on this thread too.

If you got a down (pink sheet, unsat) for a stage check in primary, you considered it a busted checkride at the time right? Many people have gotten them. The fact you got it isn't important, it is what you learned from it. (insert lesson about studying more, situational awareness, whatever you actually did learn from the incident here). Going all lawyer on the question (either on an application or during an in person interview) isn't the way to go in my opinion. "it wasn't an FAA ckride" "my ip was only a FAIP" "he wasn't a designated ck airman" etc. That makes you sound like you are debating the definition of is.

From what I've been able to gather, most interview processes are about figuring out what kind of person you are, your integrity, ability to play nice with others, etc. Not as much about your technical competence, that is what your ratings are for, or the sim ck for airlines that do sim cks. I'd rather go into an interview prepared to discuss one 'bust' on a initial training inter-stage ckride than worrying about if your integrity will ever be called into question.

For instance, the logbook examiner is looking through your logbook (or air force print outs, why is the U.S. Air Force the only place that doesn't use logbooks?) and they notice that you did your Fam13x twice, or whatever flight it was. And they ask, what happened here? How does that gybe with your application that says no ckride busts? Then you find yourself 'with some splaining to do.' not a good thing.

Short version. It was a checkride, if you did it twice, you busted it, put it down. I doubt it will affect your application but it might negatively affect your interview. Just my opinion and I'm already outnumbered 4 to 1 on this thread.

I see it as another version of the "I got a ticket when I was 16 in another state and it isn't on my record, do I put that down?" Well, if the application asks last 5 years, obviously no, if it asks have you ever had a ticket. I would say yes, whereas some might say no. Ask yourself what will make you most comfortable when you are in the interview room.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
Have interviewed with three airlines. Got a job with all three. Nobody cares a rat's petuty about a busted UPT checkride, or for UPT for that matter . . . Just that you got your wings.
 

RedDogC130

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Posts
1,329
Total Time
enough
When I went through UPT and hooked my mid-phase checkride. To prove it is not a real checkride, I busted it for my talking EP at the end of the de-brief. It was listed as a zero downgrade UNSAT. It is not a Form 8 so it does not matter. The fact of UPT does not mean anything for an airline. At my current airline, they asked for my past 3 Form 8s during my interview. Since I only had 1 I gave them one. They asked nothing regarding UPT. They just like the fact that you have the military training, it is rare that someone unless they are in the Guard or Reserves goes to an airline right out of UPT. Dont sweat it.
 

Zulu

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
107
Total Time
5000
firstthird said:
Just my opinion and I'm already outnumbered 4 to 1 on this thread.
Make it 4 to 2.

I'll start with the answer I give my kids: "If you have to wonder if you should, then you probably should."

It's almost certain that an airline isn't going to hold a UPT bust against you, but let them make the decision whether they consider it a checkride or not. It shows both a basic level of integrity and the fact that you hold yourself to a high standard.
Besides, which statement would you rather respond to?

(1) "I see that you busted your T-37 instrument check in pilot training. You really didn't have to put that down since we don't consider that a real checkride."

-or-

(2) "I see that you've never busted a checkride. That's pretty impressive given all those checkrides you had to take back in pilot training. You must have been the ace of the base."

Plus, now you've got an automatic story for any number of "Tell me about a time..." questions.

Bottom line -- put it down and be prepared to talk about it, but it's nothing to worry about.

-Z
 

AlbieF15

F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
1,764
Total Time
6000
Ditto what Z said...

I think owning up to a UPT bust shows you took the ride seriously and are not into semantics. Most interviewers will say "Geez...I hooked my T-38 contact ride too!" It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if you don't own up to it, you make me say "okay, what else to I have to specifically nail down with this clown to avoid an evasive answer".
 

RedDogC130

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Posts
1,329
Total Time
enough
Well, the question is whether or not it is a CHECKRIDE vs a progress check. Many civilian and airline training programs have progess checks along the way to see if you can move to the next phase of training. If you bust a progress check, you will not move on in training or require additional help. Those do not consitute an failed checkride. A failed checkride is for a rating or license. The "checkrides" at UPT are technically prgress checks. They are not for ratings or licenses. The Form 8 ride on the other hand is for a rating in a particular aircraft. This is how I see it, thus why I assume some companies want to see the Form 8s you may have had last. Why druge up something that is not what the questions asked. If they said, Any failed progress checks and checkrides? Owning up to something is one thing but why own up to something that is not really true. Any opinions on the this new way of thinking about it?
 

PlaneStupid

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2004
Posts
63
Total Time
5000
Look at your 942 (if you are an AF pilot). The first entry is your last T-38/T-1a check. If you passed this one and the your other checkrides following this one, then the answer is no busted check rides. It's that simple my friends.

.02
 

RedDogC130

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Posts
1,329
Total Time
enough
Remember some do not go throught -38 or T-1s. Some go through C-12 or T-44s. Doesn't say that on anything I have on record. Training reports, yes but checkride/form 8s, no. easy as that.. they are progress checks. My 2 cents.
 

firstthird

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
687
Total Time
7000
Like Albie said. Either you are the kind of person that wants to argue about semantics and keep you record 'clean' or you are the kind of person that wants to make sure everything is up front and avoid possible misunderstandings. If you are justitfying why the 'pre-wings' 'interstage' 'no form 8' 'not an FAA examiner' checkride wasn't a checkride, then that will probably work out okay. But if, on the off chance you get questioned about it during the interview, what answer are you most comfortable explaining. "I got that bust 10 years ago for forgetting to retract my landing lights." or "well, you see, that wasn't really a checkride since I wasn't winged yet, so I didn't count that."
 

RedDogC130

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Posts
1,329
Total Time
enough
The point being, that there will be no record of it that would show up during the interview. I am just saying from my point of view which just went through the interview process recently with a couple of companies from a major to a regional and nothing was ever brought up about UPT which was my most recent flying at the time. The point about keeping something clean or to avoid misunderstandings is a little extreme. Nobody has defined whether it is or is not a checkride. Keep reading about being up front about something that could be a non issue, like logging instrument time. Were you IMC or were you VMC....well it was kind of.....lets not log IMC time just in case the interviewer was watching the weather channel and did see the satelite view of Oklahoma and possibly did not see that cloud. Come on. I am done with this trend. Sorry for the rambling but I debates like this. But do not forget to tell them about the time you took that extra mint from the counter at the restaurant. Would not want them to think you are not honest.
 

Pistlpetet

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Posts
290
Total Time
-
UPT is no differnet then going thru a Part 141 training program. If you bust one of those checkrides there is nothing on your record unless it was for a license. Like the saying goes....Nice/honest guys finish LAST.
 

firstthird

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
687
Total Time
7000
Pistlpetet "Nice/honest guys finish LAST."

I guess we'll have to disagree on that one. That is what the thread boils down to though, own up to it or use some rationale to say it doesn't count. IMO.

Airlines are looking more for integrity than they are for the next 'ace of the base' who never failed a checkride. Do they always find it? No.

To be clear, I'm sure that thousands of guys have busted a checkride in UPT and answered no to this question and never had a problem with it. I'm also equally sure that there are a few who had some explaining to do in an interview and really, really wish they had answered yes.

Has anyone ever lost an airline job because they failed a UPT checkride? I doubt it, but maybe. Then again, would you really want to work for that company.

Has anyone ever tanked an interview because the interviewer, rightly or wrongly, felt that they had 'caught out' the interviewee in an untruth. Undoubtedly. Almost any mistake/error in the past can be a non-issue if you have a good lesson you learned from it and it is far enough in the past (bigger the mistake, farther back it should be, ideally). But there is almost no way to recover from an interviewer even beginning to doubt your honesty, so just don't put yourself in the situation where it might happen.
 

RedDogC130

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Posts
1,329
Total Time
enough
Here is the question...Is failing a PROGRESS CHECK the same as failing a CHECKRIDE? Please answer YES or NO

FOR THE RECORD MY answer is NO

UPT events are progress checks not checkrides...
 

TonyC

Frederick's Happy Face
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
3,050
Total Time
>8,000
Vandal said:
These airlines are asking me if I have ever busted a checkride on the applications...
I've read the threads, read the opinions, contemplated the different views, and believe I have reached my opinion on the matter. I don't recall completing an application that asked about checkrides, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't asked about them at my interview.

The application is not a test of integrity, it is a vehicle for the applicant to convey to the prospective employer his qualifications and skills. If the Box is checked YES for a T-37 Mid-Phase, it will count against the candidate with the same weight as another applicant's ATP bust. I do not believe that is the intent of the application. If I were filling out an application and the only busts I have had were UPT checkrides, unless it was the final checkride that also produced the first Form 8, I would answer NO.

On the other hand, if I were asked during an interview, "Have you ever busted a checkride?" I would answer, "Well, I don't think you'd consider it a checkride, but I did have a similar experience. During Air Force pilot training, we had progress rides that we called checkrides, and I really embarrassed myself on one of those." Now, we all know you're supposed to just answer the question, and don't volunteer more information than is needed. In other words, if the question is, "Have you lived in Boondocks all your life?" you answer, "Yes, I have." There's no need to go into your life story, a list of your addresses and girlfriends, your favorite pizza place, and the place where you got your first kiss. So, I'd leave it at that unless I got some signal from the interviewer's body language or a followup question before I expounded on the stupid thing you did on the Mid-Phase.



As an aside... I got to thinking about the first Form 8 thing... when I completed UPT, the Form 8 check was the T-38 Instrument Check. It was a 2-leg cross country, mission-planned, filed, and flown. I busted mine before I left Base Ops. England AFB has a VOR/DME, not a TACAN. I filed to the VOR/DME (the VOR Freq and DME Channel were both listed on the chart, I just used the DME channel instead of a TACAN channel). The T-38 needed a TACAN. I fixed the flight plan, flew the sorties, did the instrument work, completed the table-top EPs afterwards, and got scheduled for a 3-hour ground eval with the Squadron Commander the next day. There's not a symbol or depiction on any type of chart or plate that we didn't go over. :) He was a nice guy about it, and we had a great time. He even taught me the constant bank-angle method of maintaining an arc - - how to compute the appropriate bank angle. Anyway... before the story gets longer... My Form 8 showed an E, with no mention of the bust. My AF 942 shows an E for the ride - - no reference to the UNSAT, or the "event" that I had to accomplish to remedy my deficient mission planning. Given that I technically busted that ride the first time, I wonder if there are any guys that got an UNSAT on their first Form 8, or show an UNSAT on the AF 942.


OK... to review

Application - NO

Interview - use it as an "I learned from that" example




My 2 ¢





:)
 

Pistlpetet

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Posts
290
Total Time
-
Tony,
I agree with your rationale, and I think that is a perfectly acceptable way to go about things.
 
Top