UPS retirement?

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

LilJ...

Do you know what the max contribution to a B fund is for 2007? That combined with the 401k maximum (which generally increases by $500 each year) cannot exceed $45k per year. With the limitations of the B plan and 401k, we need to have an A plan to capture more retirement earnings. Unless they get rid of the limits for B plans and allow unlimited 401k contributions, it would be foolish to "dump" the A plan in any way, shape, or form. The fact that our plan is tied in with the manager's plan is a great incentive for ups not to do away with it.

Pilot7576

That's what I think will happen. A plans will be gone and contributions to B plans will double. But the wonderful thing about the time value of money is that you can invest your contributions into low risk funds and still outpace inflation.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Excactly, those who want to get rid of A Plans and go to all B plans, How Big do you think the Govt will allow the B Plan, 401 K contribution get before they start taking their bite? Not big enough to make up for the loss of an A Plan.

Also, a A Plan pays for itself when well managed and the company isn't borrowing from it.

It's in the interests of the govt to NOT inhibit the growth of B plans. They'll get their windfall when Social Sec benefits go away for thos with IRAs/401Ks/defined contribution plans greater than a certain amount.

It is not fair for some companies to compete in a business environment while carrying an enormous burden of retirees that are living longer and longer against those who do not have pensions. I prognosticat that SWA will continue to grow and will go intl and be as big as AA in 10-15 years. In that scenario you will have AMR competing against SWA. AMR will be paying pensions to a group of retirees which will be double than what it is now. SWA meanwhile will be chugging along making their 401k contributions to the current workers. SWA will be free and clear of the pilots on their payrolls right now while AMR will not be. That's not a level playing field and Congress has to act or millions of people will lose everything when AMR (and companies like them go bankrupt).

Like someone said before, I will gladly take A plan benefits when I retire. I am certainly not expecting them to be there though.

 

[capt. megadeth]

The fact that our plan is tied in with the manager's plan is a great incentive for ups not to do away with it.

You know what 7576? I thought that too and I brought it up to my fiancee. Well, my joy was quickly crushed when he says, "That doesn't mean anything. All they have to do is dump everyones pension plan and give the manager's huge bonuses to make up for it. They will find a way out of it." I thought about it and maybe I am really paranoid, but I wouldn't be surprised if this (or something else the company dreams up) happens one day. Basically, if it's there, great but I am not going to be surprised if it's not. I don't put anything past airline management anymore.

 

[AC560]

How Big do you think the Govt will allow the B Plan, 401 K contribution get before they start taking their bite? Not big enough to make up for the loss of an A Plan.

For 2007 it is $15,500 with a $5000 additional if you are over 50. The government doesn't get a bite of either plan until you begin to collect on it. You pay taxes on income derived out of a 401K or a defined plan. The government always gets their cut.

Also, a A Plan pays for itself when well managed and the company isn't borrowing from it.

How well it pays is dependent on how much of your compensation is in A plan contributions in exchange for that $3k per year. The pension isn't a benefit it is part of your salary so you need to look at the numbers to determine what rate of return you are getting for your salary contributions over your career.

 

[Aviator7576]

Aplan

Mega...

I know you must adore your bf, but companies cannot just "dump" their pension plans. Those pension obligations are just those, obligations. Aside from ups going bankrupt, which I don't see happening even in YOUR lifetime, much less mine, the A plan is as safe as we keep it in our future contract negotiations. Talk to Jim M. who is as much an expert on pensions as anyone here at the IPA. He has posted on the b&g to allay some of the concerns over age 60 vs 65 vis a vis the A plan. The fact that the money is tied in with the manager's money makes it very unlikely they can reward them without having to reward us at the same time.

I know you young pups want to get as much money and control it for the rest of your career...that is a good thing. But right now the limits on the money are such that when you max out (and it won't be that long) for your B plan and 401k, you still need more. Don't throw away the A plan on promises of a better B plan. Right now we are at 12%; our plan would be maxed out at 13.1% with a full 401k contribution. Never give away something until you have something better in hand.

JMO

Aviator7576

 

[AC560]

but companies cannot just "dump" their pension plans. Those pension obligations are just those, obligations.

Actually they can and do; IBM, Verizon being some of the examples. In some cases this works out good for the employees in other cases it doesn't. You won't end up with nothing but you could end up with a lot less then you thought you would have.

The other problem with defined plans is that when they become over funded (i.e. they are generating more return on investment then necessary to cover promised benefits) most companies write that money to their bottom line. GE wrote something like $1.5B into the bottom line a couple of years ago. So instead of the workers who paid into that plan getting better benefits, GE management got a payday. You don't see as much of this today but in the 90's it was accounting for 50+% of companies profits thanks to the hot stock market.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Jim M also has issues. I'll roll the dice and do my own research. If JM had succeeded our peers at FedEx would be making even more than our junior FOs make now.

UPS can't dump our A plan, but the US Congress can.

 

[Aviator7576]

Aplan

AC560...

Those plans that you referred to were not with employee groups that had a labor contract. Companies can and will change conditions of employment at their whim...that is why we have a contract.

LilJ...

You may have issues with JM and his plan for bringing fo's to parity. But last contract we were sold a b-scale by Bob M...it takes a lot of money to fix it once you get that far behind. JM is very smart on the pension plans (not only us but the competition) and did his best in all areas. If it didn't please you, Don L and his rants about getting rid of the A plan didn't please me either. CA top end pay and A plan took a hit to get you FO's up to parity. And if you think congress will just cancel A plans, you need to take off your tin foil hat, uncover your windows and go out for some fresh air.

JMO

Aviator7576

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

AC560...

Those plans that you referred to were not with employee groups that had a labor contract. Companies can and will change conditions of employment at their whim...that is why we have a contract.

LilJ...

You may have issues with JM and his plan for bringing fo's to parity. But last contract we were sold a b-scale by Bob M...it takes a lot of money to fix it once you get that far behind. JM is very smart on the pension plans (not only us but the competition) and did his best in all areas. If it didn't please you, Don L and his rants about getting rid of the A plan didn't please me either. CA top end pay and A plan took a hit to get you FO's up to parity. And if you think congress will just cancel A plans, you need to take off your tin foil hat, uncover your windows and go out for some fresh air.

JMO

Aviator7576

Up to parity!!?? How can you state such a thing? Our peers at FDX are making 30k per year more than we are flying the same airplanes! Our top Capts are making the same as FDX capts. I am very grateful to DC and CD and am glad that Tom and Jim did not get away with what they tried to do.

 

[AC560]

Those plans that you referred to were not with employee groups that had a labor contract. Companies can and will change conditions of employment at their whim...that is why we have a contract.

And all management has to do once you have retired is dangle a little carrot in front of L'il Jerry and he is voting to cut you off (or at the very least kill your COLA adjustments). I was merely making the point there is nothing legally that stops them from doing it.

With a defined plan you not only have to trust management (which nobody in a union does) but trust all your union members (which based on my experience most union people trust their own members less then they trust management). I am not advocating you giving up compensation just saying you would probably be better off putting that compensation under your control as opposed to the control of other people.

 

[Aviator7576]

parity

LilJ...

What have you been smoking? You look at guarantee for ups and federal and you can come up with a $30k difference? This contract brings fo's up to parity before the end of the contract; at the end our fo's will be making more than federal.

If you're looking at hourly rates, don't even go there. Abx has us both beat and I don't imagine you would rather be working there than at ups. If you bothered to actually look at federal's contract, you would see that we have them beat in a number of areas...pay being one of them. Their scheduling rules are still better and their vacation policy has us beat. Not to mention (but I will) how they screwed the pooch designating the 757 as a narrow body.

I don't think you realize the negotiating capital that was expended to get rid of our b scale by the end of this contract. You want it all right now and your way. To hell with the A plan, you just want a B plan. Contract gains are made incrementally and we managed a very large increment this past go around. If the fact that federal makes more per hour than you do now enrages you, go work there. I, for one, was willing to give up some top end to get the fo's where they need to be. I'm really sorry that we can't make it up to you right now, but if we did, you would have to get in line behind those who lived with that bscale for 8 yrs. They got nothing to make up for being underpaid and underpensioned for all those years.

So before you get on your high horse and tell me how it should be, why don't you find out how it used to be and how we got here from there. And in spite of what you think of the nc, they worked hard to get the best deal for everyone. Sorry they couldn't get it just right for you; maybe you'll be happy next time around, but I doubt it.

JMO

Aviator7576

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

And all management has to do once you have retired is dangle a little carrot in front of L'il Jerry and he is voting to cut you off (or at the very least kill your COLA adjustments). I was merely making the point there is nothing legally that stops them from doing it.

With a defined plan you not only have to trust management (which nobody in a union does) but trust all your union members (which based on my experience most union people trust their own members less then they trust management). I am not advocating you giving up compensation just saying you would probably be better off putting that compensation under your control as opposed to the control of other people.

For the record I am not interested in cutting anyone off. Just offering my prognostication on what I think Congress will do as a result of UPS and others lobbying efforts. But it would be ironic if JM got in return what he tried to do to junior FOs.

FDX has widebody 2 yr FOs. At the 5 yr point the FDX guy has made an aggregate amount of @100k more than a UPS FO. That's not parity. I'll take it though, but don't act like Jim M. did some benevolent thing and sacrificed for the young guys.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I know you must adore your bf, but companies cannot just "dump" their pension plans. Those pension obligations are just those, obligations. I know you young pups want to get as much money and control it for the rest of your career...that is a good thing. But right now the limits on the money are such that when you max out (and it won't be that long) for your B plan and 401k, you still need more. Don't throw away the A plan on promises of a better B plan.

Aaaaah, obligations.....what about the obligations at Enron, United, USAirways? Yeah, I know, they were in bankruptcy....yada yada. All I am saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if it's not there when I retire due to loopholes or any other thing companies can dream up in order to screw over the little people. I really really hope it is there though for the "old" guys and "young pups" alike. I think the ideal is a balance between the A plan and B plan....if the A plan will be there. I don't want to get rid of the A plan, I just hope it's there for me but I will live my life as though it won't be there (just like Social Security).

 

[AC560]

I don't want to get rid of the A plan

I have no dog in this race but I am curious as to why you would want to keep the defined pension as opposed to taking your salary and putting into your own plan? How much does the defined plan cost you per year?

 

[capt. megadeth]

I have no dog in this race but I am curious as to why you would want to keep the defined pension as opposed to taking your salary and putting into your own plan? How much does the defined plan cost you per year?

I would like to keep it because there are guys/gals here that won't have the time in that I will have and can't fund their B plan as well as I will be able to. They should have a good retirement as well. I would rather not have the A plan for myself and have more B plan contributed but with those limits y'all talk about, it would come down to changing the limits or keeping the A plan.

Having a choice would be nice too. Like do you want 20% B plan and no A plan? or 12% B plan and have an A plan. Then everyone can just pick what they want.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

LilJ...

What have you been smoking? You look at guarantee for ups and federal and you can come up with a $30k difference? This contract brings fo's up to parity before the end of the contract; at the end our fo's will be making more than federal.

If you're looking at hourly rates, don't even go there. Abx has us both beat and I don't imagine you would rather be working there than at ups. If you bothered to actually look at federal's contract, you would see that we have them beat in a number of areas...pay being one of them. Their scheduling rules are still better and their vacation policy has us beat. Not to mention (but I will) how they screwed the pooch designating the 757 as a narrow body.

I don't think you realize the negotiating capital that was expended to get rid of our b scale by the end of this contract. You want it all right now and your way. To hell with the A plan, you just want a B plan. Contract gains are made incrementally and we managed a very large increment this past go around. If the fact that federal makes more per hour than you do now enrages you, go work there. I, for one, was willing to give up some top end to get the fo's where they need to be. I'm really sorry that we can't make it up to you right now, but if we did, you would have to get in line behind those who lived with that bscale for 8 yrs. They got nothing to make up for being underpaid and underpensioned for all those years.

So before you get on your high horse and tell me how it should be, why don't you find out how it used to be and how we got here from there. And in spite of what you think of the nc, they worked hard to get the best deal for everyone. Sorry they couldn't get it just right for you; maybe you'll be happy next time around, but I doubt it.

JMO

Aviator7576

I respectfully ask you not to pull the hourly rate crap. I also request you not use the "it sucked for me so it will suck for you too" philosophy either.

Hourly rates can be debated all day long. The bottom line is that FDX bubbas are getting about 1000 hours per year of pay and our guarantee is 975. So it is apples to apples. FDX guys are making a ton more at the beginning of their careers. This amount snowballs as interest compounds. During the first 5 years FDX makes 100k more than we do. 20 Years from now that 100k grows to 219k more (using 6% interest.) ABX has better hourly rates, but their guarantee is comparitively low. I am thrilled to be at UPS. I'm paid well and have thus far been treated well. I am suspicious though because everyone that's been here long says the same thing about mgt.

We got a good contract considering the environment. Ours and FDX's are overall pretty even. I have no high horse just an opinion on what I think will happen in the future. If you don't like my opinion too bad. I have as much a right to one as you do. I listen and have learned and appreciate the gains made. I am amazed at making 6 figures so soon and know I owe it to the 88ers who made this airline. I sincerely hope they get to enjoy their A plans. I think they will, but in about 15 years A plans will be bought out for those retiring. If you don;t like it you need to bitch to the IPA, not me. UPS is spending millions lobbying against defined benefit plans and the IPA seems apathetic.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

And all management has to do once you have retired is dangle a little carrot in front of L'il Jerry and he is voting to cut you off (or at the very least kill your COLA adjustments). I was merely making the point there is nothing legally that stops them from doing it.

With a defined plan you not only have to trust management (which nobody in a union does) but trust all your union members (which based on my experience most union people trust their own members less then they trust management). I am not advocating you giving up compensation just saying you would probably be better off putting that compensation under your control as opposed to the control of other people.

It's my understanding that what you are saying is impossible. CBAs can't take away from those already retired can they?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

L'il J... you're the biggest management stooge I've ever seen on these boards. You've spent a lot of time convincing some people otherwise, but you've got to be one warped individual to spend so much time working on such a disinformation campaign. Crawl back under your pathetic management rock.

BBB

 

[Aviator7576]

LilJ...

You compare apples to apples by saying what fedex bubbas are getting and our guarantee? You want to compare, compare guarantee versus guarantee or actual versus actual. Either way, your math needs a lot of work. I'm still looking for the $30k difference between you and an equivalent fedex bubba. How did you come up with that number? I base my numbers on apc pay tables for the rest of the airlines but i have our contract and federal's dl for better comparison.

Your entitled to your opinion even when the facts you back it up with are wrong. That just reflects badly upon your reasoning and your judgement. I don't go for the woe is me scenario; I'm not asking for that time back we all spent under the miller b scale. What I'm trying to point out to you is how far we had to dig ourselves out of this ditch to get to par. You don't seem to care about that, you just want to whine about how federal is kicking your a$$ in pay. Well, guess what? A few years ago just about everyone was kicking our a$$ in pay! How many people came to ups then after turning down ual/dal/aa etc.?

I'm done with this thread about retirements and how you think we should get rid of the A plan. You have your opinion and it's probably shared by some of the younger members of the IPA. I just hope for your sake that you are also maxing out your 401k and not counting on ups or the ipa to take care of you.

JMO

Aviator7576

 

[AC560]

It's my understanding that what you are saying is impossible. CBAs can't take away from those already retired can they?

If the workers decided to terminate the plan and the plan was underfunded that could lead to existing retirees receiving reduced benefits or a insufficient cash payout.

What is more common though is that existing workers generally have to approve an increase in benefits for retired workers beyond the original scope of the agreement. So you have instances where for example GE had a pension plan over funded by billions but retirees from the late 70's were getting $500 a month and eating cat food.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

LilJ...

You compare apples to apples by saying what fedex bubbas are getting and our guarantee? You want to compare, compare guarantee versus guarantee or actual versus actual. Either way, your math needs a lot of work. I'm still looking for the $30k difference between you and an equivalent fedex bubba. How did you come up with that number? I base my numbers on apc pay tables for the rest of the airlines but i have our contract and federal's dl for better comparison.

Your entitled to your opinion even when the facts you back it up with are wrong. That just reflects badly upon your reasoning and your judgement. I don't go for the woe is me scenario; I'm not asking for that time back we all spent under the miller b scale. What I'm trying to point out to you is how far we had to dig ourselves out of this ditch to get to par. You don't seem to care about that, you just want to whine about how federal is kicking your a$$ in pay. Well, guess what? A few years ago just about everyone was kicking our a$$ in pay! How many people came to ups then after turning down ual/dal/aa etc.?

I'm done with this thread about retirements and how you think we should get rid of the A plan. You have your opinion and it's probably shared by some of the younger members of the IPA. I just hope for your sake that you are also maxing out your 401k and not counting on ups or the ipa to take care of you.

JMO

Aviator7576

You are pretty good about turning this into something it's not and trying to change my words. I'll try to be more clear.

My Point: Stating that Capt top end pay was adveresely effected in order to get junior FO pay on par with FDX is bogus. It is bogus because our pay is not on par with FDX

My Evidence From APC: Current yr 2 FO hourly rate for the MD-11 at FDX is $128. Their intl overide for FOs is $7. Their monthly minimum is 74 hours. (avg of 28 day and 35 day pay/bid period)

Current yr 2 FO hourly rate for the MD-11 at UPS is 102. Our intl overide is $4.50. Our monthly minimum is 81 hours (avg of 28 day pay period)

Here's the math: FDX= 128 + 7 X 74 X 12= $119,880
UPS= 102 + 4.50 X 81 X 12=$103,518
FDX B plan contributions would be $8391. FDX total compensation=$128,271.
UPS B plan contributions would be $12422. UPS total compensation=115,940

So in terms of pay they beat us by 16k. That's less than 30k. I was wrong and certainly admit it. But that's still over $1000 per month more. The gap narrows because our B plan is better, but that's not money you can touch.

Again, I am thrilled at what we are making. I don't see how you can claim I am whining about it. Our pay is a lot more than I ever thought I'd be making when hired. In fact, I'd rather be slightly below FDX. It gives us a better bargaining position. I think you are mad as heck because some of us got the same signing bonus as you. You think it's crappy that a 10 year FO who suffered through the Miller B scale got the same bonus as a 2005 newhire. I agree with you, but what do you want me to do, give the money back?

On a final note. The Pension Releif Act of 2022 will end A plans for those not yet retired. For that reason I am livng within my means and maxing out 401k, IRA, and discounted stock purchases. If that's whining, so be it.

 

[PreContact]

We've got them beat on the 727, 757 and DC-8. I guess if you average their narrowbody and widebody total compensation, I'm guessing we'd be close to that averaged number...will do the math later to see though.

 

[robert_fla]

If companies have to fund pensions they will not be able to compete with Asian and European companies whose employees benefit from more socialist governments where taxes are outrageously high.


Many would argue that the taxes we pay are outrageously high.

30% federal +
7% Social security +
state tax +
property taxes +
sales tax +
other local taxes ( registering a car) = OUTRAGEOUS

 

[720persecond]

If companies have to fund pensions they will not be able to compete with Asian and European companies whose employees benefit from more socialist governments where taxes are outrageously high.


Many would argue that the taxes we pay are outrageously high.

30% federal +
7% Social security +
state tax +
property taxes +
sales tax +
other local taxes ( registering a car) = OUTRAGEOUS

Excellent point. I worked on both sides of the pond, and I am paying more taxes here than there. Not to mention the pension that still exists there.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

HR request for my Resume

Hey guys

did my app in Jan along with personality test and then on friday got a email from HR wanting my resume. Any thouhgts

Second when will the new pay raises take effect and what are they

Third, can anyone tell me what 747/Md11 trips out of ANC are like.

 

[robert_fla]

where is this pension relief act of 2022? what does it state for those of us who retire after that?

thanks

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

The Pension Relief Act is a figment of my imagination, or prediction.