UPS retirement?

[Aviator7576]

parity

LilJ...

What have you been smoking? You look at guarantee for ups and federal and you can come up with a $30k difference? This contract brings fo's up to parity before the end of the contract; at the end our fo's will be making more than federal.

If you're looking at hourly rates, don't even go there. Abx has us both beat and I don't imagine you would rather be working there than at ups. If you bothered to actually look at federal's contract, you would see that we have them beat in a number of areas...pay being one of them. Their scheduling rules are still better and their vacation policy has us beat. Not to mention (but I will) how they screwed the pooch designating the 757 as a narrow body.

I don't think you realize the negotiating capital that was expended to get rid of our b scale by the end of this contract. You want it all right now and your way. To hell with the A plan, you just want a B plan. Contract gains are made incrementally and we managed a very large increment this past go around. If the fact that federal makes more per hour than you do now enrages you, go work there. I, for one, was willing to give up some top end to get the fo's where they need to be. I'm really sorry that we can't make it up to you right now, but if we did, you would have to get in line behind those who lived with that bscale for 8 yrs. They got nothing to make up for being underpaid and underpensioned for all those years.

So before you get on your high horse and tell me how it should be, why don't you find out how it used to be and how we got here from there. And in spite of what you think of the nc, they worked hard to get the best deal for everyone. Sorry they couldn't get it just right for you; maybe you'll be happy next time around, but I doubt it.

JMO

Aviator7576

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

And all management has to do once you have retired is dangle a little carrot in front of L'il Jerry and he is voting to cut you off (or at the very least kill your COLA adjustments). I was merely making the point there is nothing legally that stops them from doing it.

With a defined plan you not only have to trust management (which nobody in a union does) but trust all your union members (which based on my experience most union people trust their own members less then they trust management). I am not advocating you giving up compensation just saying you would probably be better off putting that compensation under your control as opposed to the control of other people.

For the record I am not interested in cutting anyone off. Just offering my prognostication on what I think Congress will do as a result of UPS and others lobbying efforts. But it would be ironic if JM got in return what he tried to do to junior FOs.

FDX has widebody 2 yr FOs. At the 5 yr point the FDX guy has made an aggregate amount of @100k more than a UPS FO. That's not parity. I'll take it though, but don't act like Jim M. did some benevolent thing and sacrificed for the young guys.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I know you must adore your bf, but companies cannot just "dump" their pension plans. Those pension obligations are just those, obligations. I know you young pups want to get as much money and control it for the rest of your career...that is a good thing. But right now the limits on the money are such that when you max out (and it won't be that long) for your B plan and 401k, you still need more. Don't throw away the A plan on promises of a better B plan.

Aaaaah, obligations.....what about the obligations at Enron, United, USAirways? Yeah, I know, they were in bankruptcy....yada yada. All I am saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if it's not there when I retire due to loopholes or any other thing companies can dream up in order to screw over the little people. I really really hope it is there though for the "old" guys and "young pups" alike. I think the ideal is a balance between the A plan and B plan....if the A plan will be there. I don't want to get rid of the A plan, I just hope it's there for me but I will live my life as though it won't be there (just like Social Security).

 

[AC560]

I don't want to get rid of the A plan

I have no dog in this race but I am curious as to why you would want to keep the defined pension as opposed to taking your salary and putting into your own plan? How much does the defined plan cost you per year?

 

[capt. megadeth]

I have no dog in this race but I am curious as to why you would want to keep the defined pension as opposed to taking your salary and putting into your own plan? How much does the defined plan cost you per year?

I would like to keep it because there are guys/gals here that won't have the time in that I will have and can't fund their B plan as well as I will be able to. They should have a good retirement as well. I would rather not have the A plan for myself and have more B plan contributed but with those limits y'all talk about, it would come down to changing the limits or keeping the A plan.

Having a choice would be nice too. Like do you want 20% B plan and no A plan? or 12% B plan and have an A plan. Then everyone can just pick what they want.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

LilJ...

What have you been smoking? You look at guarantee for ups and federal and you can come up with a $30k difference? This contract brings fo's up to parity before the end of the contract; at the end our fo's will be making more than federal.

If you're looking at hourly rates, don't even go there. Abx has us both beat and I don't imagine you would rather be working there than at ups. If you bothered to actually look at federal's contract, you would see that we have them beat in a number of areas...pay being one of them. Their scheduling rules are still better and their vacation policy has us beat. Not to mention (but I will) how they screwed the pooch designating the 757 as a narrow body.

I don't think you realize the negotiating capital that was expended to get rid of our b scale by the end of this contract. You want it all right now and your way. To hell with the A plan, you just want a B plan. Contract gains are made incrementally and we managed a very large increment this past go around. If the fact that federal makes more per hour than you do now enrages you, go work there. I, for one, was willing to give up some top end to get the fo's where they need to be. I'm really sorry that we can't make it up to you right now, but if we did, you would have to get in line behind those who lived with that bscale for 8 yrs. They got nothing to make up for being underpaid and underpensioned for all those years.

So before you get on your high horse and tell me how it should be, why don't you find out how it used to be and how we got here from there. And in spite of what you think of the nc, they worked hard to get the best deal for everyone. Sorry they couldn't get it just right for you; maybe you'll be happy next time around, but I doubt it.

JMO

Aviator7576

I respectfully ask you not to pull the hourly rate crap. I also request you not use the "it sucked for me so it will suck for you too" philosophy either.

Hourly rates can be debated all day long. The bottom line is that FDX bubbas are getting about 1000 hours per year of pay and our guarantee is 975. So it is apples to apples. FDX guys are making a ton more at the beginning of their careers. This amount snowballs as interest compounds. During the first 5 years FDX makes 100k more than we do. 20 Years from now that 100k grows to 219k more (using 6% interest.) ABX has better hourly rates, but their guarantee is comparitively low. I am thrilled to be at UPS. I'm paid well and have thus far been treated well. I am suspicious though because everyone that's been here long says the same thing about mgt.

We got a good contract considering the environment. Ours and FDX's are overall pretty even. I have no high horse just an opinion on what I think will happen in the future. If you don't like my opinion too bad. I have as much a right to one as you do. I listen and have learned and appreciate the gains made. I am amazed at making 6 figures so soon and know I owe it to the 88ers who made this airline. I sincerely hope they get to enjoy their A plans. I think they will, but in about 15 years A plans will be bought out for those retiring. If you don;t like it you need to bitch to the IPA, not me. UPS is spending millions lobbying against defined benefit plans and the IPA seems apathetic.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

And all management has to do once you have retired is dangle a little carrot in front of L'il Jerry and he is voting to cut you off (or at the very least kill your COLA adjustments). I was merely making the point there is nothing legally that stops them from doing it.

With a defined plan you not only have to trust management (which nobody in a union does) but trust all your union members (which based on my experience most union people trust their own members less then they trust management). I am not advocating you giving up compensation just saying you would probably be better off putting that compensation under your control as opposed to the control of other people.

It's my understanding that what you are saying is impossible. CBAs can't take away from those already retired can they?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

L'il J... you're the biggest management stooge I've ever seen on these boards. You've spent a lot of time convincing some people otherwise, but you've got to be one warped individual to spend so much time working on such a disinformation campaign. Crawl back under your pathetic management rock.

BBB

 

[Aviator7576]

LilJ...

You compare apples to apples by saying what fedex bubbas are getting and our guarantee? You want to compare, compare guarantee versus guarantee or actual versus actual. Either way, your math needs a lot of work. I'm still looking for the $30k difference between you and an equivalent fedex bubba. How did you come up with that number? I base my numbers on apc pay tables for the rest of the airlines but i have our contract and federal's dl for better comparison.

Your entitled to your opinion even when the facts you back it up with are wrong. That just reflects badly upon your reasoning and your judgement. I don't go for the woe is me scenario; I'm not asking for that time back we all spent under the miller b scale. What I'm trying to point out to you is how far we had to dig ourselves out of this ditch to get to par. You don't seem to care about that, you just want to whine about how federal is kicking your a$$ in pay. Well, guess what? A few years ago just about everyone was kicking our a$$ in pay! How many people came to ups then after turning down ual/dal/aa etc.?

I'm done with this thread about retirements and how you think we should get rid of the A plan. You have your opinion and it's probably shared by some of the younger members of the IPA. I just hope for your sake that you are also maxing out your 401k and not counting on ups or the ipa to take care of you.

JMO

Aviator7576

 

[AC560]

It's my understanding that what you are saying is impossible. CBAs can't take away from those already retired can they?

If the workers decided to terminate the plan and the plan was underfunded that could lead to existing retirees receiving reduced benefits or a insufficient cash payout.

What is more common though is that existing workers generally have to approve an increase in benefits for retired workers beyond the original scope of the agreement. So you have instances where for example GE had a pension plan over funded by billions but retirees from the late 70's were getting $500 a month and eating cat food.