UPS new hires to MD-11!

[Marty Moose]

I have been maintaining a listening watch for quite some time, Brown Cow what gives with the hostility. There was no malice behind the General's comments. Well said BidBrownDC8.

 

[stonewall]

I've got no opinion one way or the other about UPS sending dudes to the MD-11 right off the bat, but I have a question.

All I've flown is small pointy jets, and I've plumbed a little on the panel. I'm going to the right seat of the Boeing next month and ain't sweating it. HOWEVER, if I showed up day one of Indoc and they told me I was going to be an -11 F/O next week, I'd start sweating bullets. And I consider myself an above average pilot (but then again, don't we all?). Wouldn't that be a tough way to start? I'm sure any qualified pilot could hack it eventually, but that sounds like a helluva lot of work right off the bat.

 

[Spooky 1]

You can say that again

I've got no opinion one way or the other about UPS sending dudes to the MD-11 right off the bat, but I have a question.

All I've flown is small pointy jets, and I've plumbed a little on the panel. I'm going to the right seat of the Boeing next month and ain't sweating it. HOWEVER, if I showed up day one of Indoc and they told me I was going to be an -11 F/O next week, I'd start sweating bullets. And I consider myself an above average pilot (but then again, don't we all?). Wouldn't that be a tough way to start? I'm sure any qualified pilot could hack it eventually, but that sounds like a helluva lot of work right off the bat.

Amen brother. The plate is really full for these guys/gals. Not sure why UPS would do this in the first place. Most of these folks will find them selves in the position of Relief pilot duties and if my past is any indicator of how this works, they will not be getting much stick time. Oh well wtf do I know?

 

[Purpledog]

Why doesn't UPS have a seat bid to move the peeps around instead of sending all the newbies into FO seats? Aren't there a bunch of current SO's getting bypassed? Do they get passover pay?

General don't sweat the flamers. I realize I'm lucky to have gone this route. Makes me look like a genius now, which I'm not by any stretch.

 

[Rory Bellows]

Why doesn't UPS have a seat bid to move the peeps around instead of sending all the newbies into FO seats? Aren't there a bunch of current SO's getting bypassed? Do they get passover pay?.

I love the phraseology FedEx uses...”passover pay.” Sounds like money that should be used to buy matzoh

UPS calls is “bypass” pay. Others call it “withholding.” It’s all the same. Yes, the new hire SO’s are being bypassed per a MOU that was signed around December of last year. It says new hire SO’s can be held in their seat for up to 2 years from DOH and will receive FO pay on their 2nd anniversary, as long as a FO who is junior to that SO is hired off the street.

Why are they bypassing the SO’s? I’m assuming it’s to mitigate a training backlog and to prevent crewmembers from having 2 or 3 training events within the same year (and thus incurring that extra cost).

Works for me. I don’t have to go through a second training event this year, I’m guaranteed FO pay in a few more months and when I do get a window seat, I won’t be the most junior guy in that seat.

[font=&quot]RB [/font]

 

[Below Mins]

I've got no opinion one way or the other about UPS sending dudes to the MD-11 right off the bat, but I have a question.

All I've flown is small pointy jets, and I've plumbed a little on the panel. I'm going to the right seat of the Boeing next month and ain't sweating it. HOWEVER, if I showed up day one of Indoc and they told me I was going to be an -11 F/O next week, I'd start sweating bullets. And I consider myself an above average pilot (but then again, don't we all?). Wouldn't that be a tough way to start? I'm sure any qualified pilot could hack it eventually, but that sounds like a helluva lot of work right off the bat.

The safest seat for a new hire during probation is probably a plumber seat. However, it's been my experience that the bigger they are, the easier they are to fly. The new hire guys/gals going to the 75/76 will have a much tougher time in training than the MD-11 folks, if for no other reason than the ground school alone.

All that being said, I seriously doubt UPS will put a new hire in the -11 unless they have some previous heavy experience (i.e. C141, C5, C17, etc).

Just my opinion....

Below Mins

 

[Spooky 1]

The "safest seat" for a new hire during probation is probably a plumber seat. However, it's been my experience that the bigger they are, the easier they are to fly. The new hire guys/gals going to the 75/76 will have a much tougher time in training than the MD-11 folks, if for no other reason than the ground school alone.

All that being said, I seriously doubt UPS will put a new hire in the -11 unless they have some previous heavy experience (i.e. C141, C5, C17, etc).

Just my opinion....

Below Mins

I don't know why you happen to think that the B757/767 ground school is more of a challenge than the MD11, but I suppose either one could be difficult for a person who was not truly attentive to the task at hand. My comments were directed at the actual aircraft. I would agree that the larger aircraft are somewhat easier to handle than some lesser MGW aircraft, but the MD11 has certain qualities that can be challenging to even experienced heavy aircraft drivers. I think if you reflected back on the series of accidents/incidents that this aircraft has experienced, especially given the small size of the world wide fleet, you would tend agree that the airplane has some very unforgiving qualities. I am not bashing the MD11, as I enjoyed the six years that I flew it very much. It just does not suffer fools lightly, and that is a fact. Therefore, getting back to my original statement, the MD11 would seem to be a poor choice for an initial assignment at UPS. In addition to the fact that the frequency of landings for a junior airman (RP) would probably not be as good as say the Boeing 767/757, or Airbus category of aircraft. No big deal as I don't have a dog in the fight. Just an observation that may be flawed to boot.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Not sure why UPS would do this in the first place. Most of these folks will find them selves in the position of Relief pilot duties and if my past is any indicator of how this works, they will not be getting much stick time. Oh well wtf do I know?

Hey Spooky ... how's things at the senior center these days? To clear up any confusion ... UPS doesn't really have a choice. Not enough FO's on the current seniority list bid for the available MD-11 FO positions, so UPS is forced to hire into the FO position from the street. Age within a new hire class determines seniority, but I'm sure UPS is looking closely at the backgrounds of the pilots they assign to the MD-11 as someone has previously suggested. As far as a new hire being assigned as a "relief pilot" (UPS calls them IRO's ... International Relief Officers) our current labor agreement dictates that all IRO's on all fleets (except the 767) be CAPTAINS. You can be sure UPS is pushing hard to change this during current negotiations ... or probably HA$ changed it since scheduling has been completed.

Take care and remember your Geritol, Centrum Silver, Preparation H, denture cream, and especially that Viagra for Mrs Spooky!

BBB

 

[Below Mins]

I don't know why you happen to think that the B757/767 ground school is more of a challenge than the MD11, but I suppose either one could be difficult for a person who was not truly attentive to the task at hand. My comments were directed at the actual aircraft. I would agree that the larger aircraft are somewhat easier to handle than some lesser MGW aircraft, but the MD11 has certain qualities that can be challenging to even experienced heavy aircraft drivers. I think if you reflected back on the series of accidents/incidents that this aircraft has experienced, especially given the small size of the world wide fleet, you would tend agree that the airplane has some very unforgiving qualities. I am not bashing the MD11, as I enjoyed the six years that I flew it very much. It just does not suffer fools lightly, and that is a fact. Therefore, getting back to my original statement, the MD11 would seem to be a poor choice for an initial assignment at UPS. In addition to the fact that the frequency of landings for a junior airman (RP) would probably not be as good as say the Boeing 767/757, or Airbus category of aircraft. No big deal as I don't have a dog in the fight. Just an observation that may be flawed to boot.

I based my statements regarding the relative difficulty of training on knowing people who have gone through both programs. Most have told me that the -11 is a "gentleman's course" when compared to the 75/76, at least at UPS. That being said, I agree any training program can be difficult if you are not focused, and that landing currency/proficiency is a problem for everyone.

The reason UPS is putting new hires into these FO seats is because they went unfilled in the most recent vacancy bid.

 

[Below Mins]

Age within a new hire class determines seniority, but I'm sure UPS is looking closely at the backgrounds of the pilots they assign to the MD-11 as someone has previously suggested.

Just to clarify, while UPS does allow new hires to "bid" their seats, seniority alone will not guarantee they will get their choice. According to a friend who is starting next week, their preference must be approved by someone in the training dept and/or an ACP. I assume this is to help prevent any potential problems.

 

[Spooky 1]

Nice to hear from you again

Hey Spooky ... how's things at the senior center these days? To clear up any confusion ... UPS doesn't really have a choice. Not enough FO's on the current seniority list bid for the available MD-11 FO positions, so UPS is forced to hire into the FO position from the street. Age within a new hire class determines seniority, but I'm sure UPS is looking closely at the backgrounds of the pilots they assign to the MD-11 as someone has previously suggested. As far as a new hire being assigned as a "relief pilot" (UPS calls them IRO's ... International Relief Officers) our current labor agreement dictates that all IRO's on all fleets (except the 767) be CAPTAINS. You can be sure UPS is pushing hard to change this during current negotiations ... or probably HA$ changed it since scheduling has been completed.

Take care and remember your Geritol, Centrum Silver, Preparation H, denture cream, and especially that Viagra for Mrs Spooky!

BBB

Big Beer Belly........so nice to hear from you again. I starting to have withdrawls from not having my daily rationing of age dicriminatory insults. Now to what really matters.

Why does UPS distinguish between the MD11 and the B767 as far as having a Captain serve as IRO? It would seem that this is an area that UPS pilots might trade for something really important as opposed just filling as many Capt. slots as possible without adding any real meaningful safety to the operation.

I am starting to fade................so I'am going slip back into my usual comotose state for the next hour or two. Wake me up when you have an answer.

 

[Below Mins]

Why does UPS distinguish between the MD11 and the B767 as far as having a Captain serve as IRO? It would seem that this is an area that UPS pilots might trade for something really important as opposed just filling as many Capt. slots as possible without adding any real meaningful safety to the operation.

It's strictly a contractual issue. When the current agreement was signed in 1998, we did not have the MD-11. The contract states, specifically, that FO's may serve as IRO's only on the 767. This most likely will change in the next contract.

 

[Spooky 1]

Thanks. I see where you are coming from now. Last contract 1998. No wonder you guys are a little pissed off.

 

[Boogie]

Speaking of contracts, are you guys getting any closer?

 

[BoilerUP]

I've heard the -11 is staffed at nearly 10 crews per airplane. Even with the long-haul flying, isn't that pretty darn high staffing? Seems like people would have problems getting landings as it is...

 

[donger]

Ouch! I do love those brown uniforms though.

Yikes!

 

[Brown Cow]

Thankfully the attention has drifted away from me. Maybe some of you are a little harsh towards me. This was a classic case of misunderstanding, misinterpretation and a bunch of other "mis-" words.

The General originally started by saying that the 727 FE seat was the worst......great for those guys that could bypass that horrible place. This was originally taken as offensive on my part. I felt that the General was attacking us in a way to emphasize that at Delta there is no seat as bad as the FE seat; that we were in some way a lesser being.

I retorted, the General retorted, I retorted, the General retorted, then others chimed in, and I decided to let the dust settle.

General, please accept my apology. I didn't mean to maliciously attack you or your employer. More importantly, I did not in any way want to suggest that I am better than anyone else, that I am privileged. Quite the contrary. I feel darn lucky.

I recently had a closer look at some of your posts in the past; some raised an eyebrow, some made me laugh, and some made me a little smarter. General, keep doing what you are doing, you are an asset to this board. Hopefully our paths won't cross like this again.

 

[Heavy Set]

Thankfully the attention has drifted away from me. Maybe some of you are a little harsh towards me. This was a classic case of misunderstanding, misinterpretation and a bunch of other "mis-" words.

The General originally started by saying that the 727 FE seat was the worst......great for those guys that could bypass that horrible place. This was originally taken as offensive on my part. I felt that the General was attacking us in a way to emphasize that at Delta there is no seat as bad as the FE seat; that we were in some way a lesser being.

I retorted, the General retorted, I retorted, the General retorted, then others chimed in, and I decided to let the dust settle.

General, please accept my apology. I didn't mean to maliciously attack you or your employer. More importantly, I did not in any way want to suggest that I am better than anyone else, that I am privileged. Quite the contrary. I feel darn lucky.

I recently had a closer look at some of your posts in the past; some raised an eyebrow, some made me laugh, and some made me a little smarter. General, keep doing what you are doing, you are an asset to this board. Hopefully our paths won't cross like this again.

Now that's professional. Wish we could have more professional discussions like this.