UPS Capt. Fired over JS?

[Falconjet]

Freight Dog: It is not FedEx's policy that doesn't allow offline jumpseaters. The union reps at FedEx and the management realize that it is in everybody's best interest to return to the old jumpseat policy. The FAA and TSA are the ones who won't allow it yet. All of the FedEx jumpseats are technically cockpit jumpseats. Until all the other carriers are allowed offline jumpers in the actual cockpit FedEx won't be allowed to carry offline jumpers.

REPEAT: It is not FedEx's policy! Its FAA and TSA rules and laws that prohibit FedEx from allowing offline jumpers.

There have been a couple other threads concerning this issue recently with much better info than I have provided if you would like to get more info.

Take it easy!

FJ

 

[de727ups]

Security

I think the issue is more along the lines of who should have access to the flight deck. Do we want business professionals that the company is trying to save an airline ticket for having access to our flight decks? Has this person had any kind of a security background check? Has this person had training on how to properly act on the flight deck and not create at distraction at the wrong times? Not sure about Fedex but UPS has no aircraft equipped with cockpit doors...even our 747's with the nice first class seats on the upper deck have no way to seperate the flight deck from the jumpseats...and the company isn't going to spend a dime to put in a cockpit door.

It's true that UPS crews haven't been able to reciprocate jumpseats since 9/11. We've been fighting to regain the jumpseats but it's a slow process. ALPA knows we are doing our best and have been more than supportive in helping us poor line pukes get to work. For this I give ALPA and ALPA crews (and non ALPA, too) a big THANK YOU...we won't forget it.

Dimitry...there were some nice things said about you at our union message board a while back reference you taking pics of our guys landing at ANC. You should know that our pilot group is very much in favor of the PIC having control over who is allowed flight deck access on our aircraft. Then you make this statement "Any idea why the captain did this unwise stunt?". I don't know the exact facts about this incident but I'd hardly say that a PIC fighting for his right to say who does, and who doesn't, have access to the flight deck is unwise. This is a typical fight between management, who is trying to save money and exert control, and the pilots, who are trying to preserve the safety/security of the flight deck.

In the end, Auburn Calloway was still a part 121 FAA certificated airman that would have gotten on any jumpseat....guess you can't do much about the real nut cases. But, personally, I'm all for the PIC having the say about who can get on the airplane if they would have access to the flight deck. Horse handlers??? Make them do a 10 year FBI background check and give them the wand, just like pilots get to do.

 

[NightFlyer]

Freight Dog, I still don't think you are getting the picture. All of our jumpseats are considered cockpit jumpseats, therefore offline pilots cannot ride in them. I cannot ride the cockpit jumpseats of American, Delta, Northwest, etc. I can though, ride in the back on a passenger carrier because those carriers have FA's. FedEx and UPS don't. This whole issue is a TSA/FAA issue. We all greatly appreciate those fellow pilots out there that are letting us ride in the back of your aircraft. Hopefully the TSA/FAA will come up with a universal ID for air crews are something of that sort so we can all ride each others jumpseats someday, until then we are stuck with the current policy.

Fly Safe,
NightFlyer

 

[Spur]

The horse handler would not have been in the cockpit. The DC-10 has jumpseats aft of the cockpit door (cabin jumpseats). Im sure the reason the company elected to pursue this matter so aggressively is that with a 3 man crew, the handler would never had to have access to the cockpit.

I am also of the opinion that the union misled the DC-10 crew force with some "Clintonian legalese" with regard to the FAR and the number of crewmembers who may be out of their seats at one time. Well I know what the definition of "is" is, and apparently the company knows how to read the FARs.

The big question for me is whether the union is gonna sacrifice the Capt in question (maybe all three) and continue to play hardball, or capitulate and try to save their jobs... That would be a pity since there were certainly some valid security issues that needed to be resolved, and they may get lost because of these horse incidents. Anyway you slice it it's a $hitty situation and we've no one to blame but ourselves -- IMHO.

 

[AlbieF15]

Fedex bros,

Cat is out of the bag on this issue, but may I make a humble suggestion?

I don't talk about my sex life, my income, or the INTERNAL Union/Mgt FedEx issues on these boards. I don't think our interests, or the interests of our union or company are best served if we roll our own dirty laundry out for the entire message board.

What the rest of you outside FDX should know is Jumpseats are a VERY contentious issue right now, as evidenced by these posts. For you commuters, understand until these battles get soothed flying with us is unlikely...but we are working on it. In the meantime, take your airline ID (UPS guys too!) down to your local FDX office when you want to ship something and its 75% off or 5 bucks, whichever is greater. We'll keep bringing cookies for the crew when we jump on your flights as well, and as always VERY much appreciate the support.

I echo USN FDX and a bunch of other guys concerns over if/when/what we should fight about, but I have thus far kept my feelings confined to letters to my union rep in the interest of preserving unity--and also because like most folks here--I don't have ALL the facts. If we trash our ALPA-FEDEX MEC leaders on these boards, then we undermind the other issues they raise on our behalf. USN said many things I've heard in the AOC...but I'll leave it at that for now. We have bigger issues to deal with in the future.

UPS guys...you are in a different situation that the standard board gawkers. Our unions trade newsletters, and we get an occassional glimpse into your struggles at Big Brown. If you have questions, send us a PM and we'll do our best to keep you informed.

Based on the USAIR retirement debacle, I think the #1 goal of ALPA and every independent airline union should be to move funds out of company pension accounts into 3rd party annuities managed by the likes of Fidelity, Vanguard, etc. I hope that is where our future focus lies...not in PIC issues or "industry leading" pay rates. My heart goes out to those guys who just got raped while corporate types stuffed their pockets prior to the Chapter 11 announcement.

 

[FoxHunter]

The jumpseats outside the cockpit are not and never have been cockpit jumpseats. The company will never allow offline jumpseats until the Business jumpseat issue is solved. The MEC has taken the position that the PIC should have total control of all seats on the aircraft. The FAA has made it very clear that this is not the case. The MEC believes they should have the same influence that the UAL MEC/pilot group had during the summer of 2000. With that type of leadership we could wind up like the UAL pilot group of 2003. The good news is that management at FedEx will never let that happen. The question is how many pilot jobs they are willing to sacrifice for their power trip?

 

[USNFDX]

One more thing Frieght Dog

Fedex spends a ton of money deadheading us on comercial airlines. Quite often I have the opportunity to jumpseat on Fedex or other carriers. Most of the time it is far more convient to take the company jumpseat than to go through the body cavity search that you guys put me through for using my overpriced one-way ticket. I usually use my ticket and Fedex looses. Why, you might ask? Because I figure you guys can use the money. Actualy it is really quite selfish of me : I'm hopeing you guys will start making money again and wages wouldn't continue to go backwards. Plus, we get miles on NWA. Bottom line: Were not just a bunch freeloaders. In the last year I've jumpseated three times comercially and had paid ticket more than 30 times.

 

[USMCFDX]

I have to agree with Albie. Fellow FedEx pilots why not air some of your concerns on the ALPA FDX message board on the union website.
Hopefully you would not be afraid to post your same views with your name attached for your fellow pilots to read and respond to. Open discussion is good, and it is good for Capts to hear the viewpoints of us junior pilots. Why not post them where many FedEx pilots can read them instead of the few who read this board.

 

[Spur]

Freightdog-- let me try to explain this more clearly.

-- FAA/TSA regulations prohibit offline jumpseaters in the cockpit due to the inability to verify employment/status outside your own company. FAA/TSA regs allow jumpseaters in passenger seats only.
-- We have a cockpit door with FAA/TSA certified locks (same as pax carriers) on all widebody aircraft.
-- We have no FAs aft of said cockpit door, therefore we have no passenger seats.
-- FAA/TSA does not distinguish between cockpit and cabin JUMPSEATS.
-- Horse handlers have a FAA/TSA approved indentification procedure which allows them to accompany the animals inflight.
-- The PIC has absolute authority to deplane anyone from cockpit jumpseats without need for any explanation.
-- No such authority extends beyond the cockpit door.
(Therein lies the source of the current problem)

We sincerely appreciate all the support we are getting from our Pax brothers while we try to get this resolved...

 

[JethroF15]

Posted by Freightdog:

and if I am not mistaken, you have seats AFT of the cockpit too in just about every airplane in your fleet

Sorry, mistaken. Our widebodies do have seats outside the cockpit. Different AC, different number of seats. The B727 AC does not have any seats outside the cockpit. At last count we were still flying approx 155 of them. That makes up the greatest number of a single type AC in the fleet. I, along with 99.9 percent of the other FedEx guys want to get the offline JS issue resolved and be able to reciprocate with JSs. Sorry to hear that Freightdog wants to "stick-it to" his fellow pilots to make his point. I'm a commuter and do JS when I have to. I am EXTREMELY thankful to the guys who have gladly offered a ride knowing that we can't reciprocate. And from what I have seen the great majority of PAX pilots understand what the situation is and aren't looking to screw a fellow pilot over something he has no control over. When we do get offline JSs back I hope Freightdog is the first in line to ride because I'll gladly welcome him aboard! Until that time I thank all the guys out there giving us purple guys a ride. One last thought Freightdog, when you take away your JSs from us who do you hurt the most? The most junior guys on the list. The guys on first yr pay, etc. Guess you would love to see them shelling out that ID75 like you said you wanted.

 

[kilted pilot]

Spur,
I would have to debate you on your claim that the FAA/TSA
considers all seats aft of the cockpit door cockpit jumpseats due to the lack of a flight attendant. Our 747's have no door and the FAA allows us to accept o/a jumpseaters. I fully support the PIC retaining the authority to deny the transport on his aircraft of anyone he has a real concern with. I also believe that if Fed Ex can indeed save 40 million dollars each year by moving staff on their own airline, the MEC should find a solution with management to eliminate this expenditure; especially in this ecomony.

 

[Wise Guy]

kilted pilot,

Your carrier most likely operates under Part 135 and not Part 121, as does UPS and FedEx. Unbelievably, the rules are different for offline jumpseaters under current FAA/TSA rules for 121 carriers.

To all those professionals that continue to extend j/s to us poor freight dogs, I extend a THANK YOU VERY MUCH from all of us.

Regrads, WG

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

wise guy
you had replied to kilted pilot that his company was a "135" instead of a '121' company. If he flies the 747 it is a 121 operation, not 135.

 

[plm727]

CARGO jumpseats

Kitty Hawk Aircargo....a 727 operator.....has had their OFFLINE jumpseats open for over a year. The jumpseats offered to OFFLINE pilots are the FA jump seats outside the cockpit. Kitty Hawk has also started placing secure cockpit doors on its 727 aircraft.
Kitty Hawk serves 30 cities or so each nght through it's hun in Fort Wayne.
Jump seats are usually available.
I hope this helps.

 

[Publishers]

Handlers

Handlers and pilots are two separate issues. Handlers, high end couriers, and guards are part of the frieght carriage. Those situations have nothing at all to do with jumpseating by pilots or other emplyee's.

 

[UPS Capt]

A year and a half has gone by, and you people still haven't forced your company to do what it can to restore the offline access

It's not up to the pilots. If it were then we'd be allowing jumpseaters by now. We have very little control over what our company decides to do, nor how they go about doing it. On the other hand, it's not the individual companies like UPS and FedEx holding up the works...it's the TSA/FAA.

Our union (IPA), along with many other airline unions, have been very active in working with the TSA/FAA and each other to allow offline jumpseaters back on our seats and all indications show that work will pay off very soon.

Nobody wants to re-open jumpseats more than the pilots at UPS or FedEx. The pax carrier guys/gals have been very generous about allowing us to jumpseat while we work to reciprocate. Most crewmembers understand what we're up against and know we are working very hard to restore our jumpseats. For those crewmembers I say THANKS!!

 

[Freight Dog]

How come Polar, Atlas, Gemini and Kitty Hawk offer jumpseats while the two largest cargo carriers in the country are still off-limits to offline pilots?

 

[Beaver]

The reason is because Atlas, Polar, Kitty Hawk and many other cargo carriers are 109 carriers and Fedex, UPS and DHL are 108 carriers.

 

[Freight Dog]

Alright, but DHL takes jumpseaters in their A300's because they installed the door. What's the hold up at FDX/UPS?

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaaak wrote


$hitty generalization...claiming this Captain is just like all those out to break the rules. $hitty.

My post wasn't aimed at the FedEx Captain, and I certainly never claimed that he was breaking any rules. He may be perfectly justified in doing what he did. I was referring to those posters who evaded Alaska's legitimate questions by instead choosing to patronize him and told him to "listen and learn, but be quiet" as if he were some toddler just because he doesn't have many hours under his belt. It's the "be quiet" part that bugs me.

My advice to "watch out for Captains who evade answering an F/Os questions" comes from the experience of having 2 friends who sat by in their F/O seats and watched as their Captains killed them and all those aboard. Getting into the CVR cockpit-discussions is too lengthy to detail here, but in both cases their questions and doubts went unanswered and the evasions unfortunately accepted, which means they share the blame. Yeah, Alaska's question was about JSing, but telling him to be quiet because of he's "inexperienced" is a lesson I hope he never learns.

The only absolute directive I give any F/O I fly with is "If you don't like what we're doing, or don't understand why we're doing it, then you're duty-bound to ask questions. If I can't give you a good anwer, then perhaps we shouldn't be doing it in the first place". I don't care if the F/O has 10 hrs. or 10,000..it makes no difference....I should still be able to back up my actions with a satisfactory answer or I shouldnt' be sitting in the Captain's seat. If not, then I don't even want to fly with me.

Anyway, that's all I meant.