UPS buys the old Emery Worldwide operation

[I.P. Freley]

Just curious if anybody knows the conditions of the "contract". I say this because everybody seems to hear of agreements and/or contracts being signed within the industry, but seldom does anyone ever know the details. For all we know, this could be a contract for Express.Net to provide only ground handling services.

I don't know the specifics of the contract, nor actually that it's for a year, the latter just speculation because a three-month contract seems unlikely (thus my earlier comment about "sept. '06"). There IS a contract, regardless of length.

I don't know, however, where the idea comes from that it would be for "ground handling", since all ground handling (in the hub and outstations) is done by Menlo/UPS people or people that they contract with to do those operations. ENA/CAT/AeroUnion etc. only supply airplanes, crews, MX, and maybe one ops person per company for the hub that is the on-site arm of scheduling/operations... Thus the term "ACMI". At least that's my understanding of the relationship between the Menlo/UPS outfit and the contractors.

 

[27 driver]

I hear you boomlrd, I guess the contract CAT has with Menlo doesn't mean anything to UPS pilots. It seems that some of these guys were born in a brown uniform. We have to build time somewhere so we can elevate to the sky god status of UPS, FEDEX and such.

 

[27 driver]

Jesus! I hopr you CAT guys aren't living in as much of a dream world as I think you are!

If any of you seriously think that you are gonna keep flying Menlo freight out of Dayton forever, you need a serious reality check. And for Mr. "We should be hired at UPS"... You need to take a step back and look at how ludicrous that statement is.

You are just a contractor, just like every other ACMI out there. If anybody should be getting jobs at UPS it should be the old Emery Worldwide pilots who actually worked for Emery/Meno/CNF.... Not some scumbag contractor.

UPS bought Menlo, not CAT. You are not tied to the deal whatsoever. If you think for one second that IPA would allow UPS to keep your whore of an airline around when the operation moves to SDF, you are sorely mistaken.

I don't think any UPS pilot wants an airline around the hub that furloughed 15 of it's own current and qualified pilots in lieu of hiring PFT'ers like yourself.

Oh buuuut wait, you didn't PFT....you got the Government to pay for it!! You probably need to stop bragging about that, BTW.

What happened to those 747's and 757's you guys were bragging about a few months ago? Tony Romeo still gonna be your savior?

But wait I forgot...you have all sorts of contracts you can just "call in" at the drop of a hat....

Man what pissed you off so much pilotman. Do you have a grudge against smaller airlines such as CAT. Did you get hired right from PPL to UPS. Were is a good place to build time. I am sure you had to start somewhere. All pilots out there would love to work for UPS, FEDEX, or one of the legacy carriers. Not all of us are that fortunate. There is only room for a few, I guess the rest don't have a right to earn a paycheck. Sure CAT hires PFT guys. whats wrong with that? I have flown with just about all of them and most do a good job. Nobody hands us our ratings for free. I did not do the PFT program but don't hold a grudge against anybody that wants to accelerate their career. Cat was flying Menlo freight long before big bad brown steped in. I am not so arrogant as to think we will fly UPS freight for long nor would I cross your picket line if you decide to strike. You must remember that we all start somewhere and have to build time, and airlines like CAT provide those oppertunities. Cat did have a contract with Menlo, doesn't that mean anything. I am sure UPS will not honor our contract. Man, give a cracker a break.

 

[27 driver]

HAHA, quite fitting someone with an ID like yours would reply. You know what I'm talking about then. They are about as rigid as a board with the occasional fake smile crossing there face. It was kind of embarrassing being there with some of those CAT pilots with their raggedy and tattered stripes or uniform shirt with no T-shirt underneath. That doesn't make for a very good impression for those of us who might like to work at UPS someday. They will see CAT on the resume and say "that disheveled bunch? no way!!"

I hope you are right about taking over the flying at the end of the year. I am tired of everything being on hold while we wait for what is to come next, even if it means finding another job. No sense staying around CAT if there is no future here.

I am curious, does UPS have 30 extra aircraft just waiting around to do something? By the way, I would love to become a fellow Nazi. I can even fly the 727. How about helping me out??

Not all cat pilots dress like dirtbags. Some of us actually would like to move on to UPS or FEDEX and realize first impressions are important. Sure there are a few that are not going anywhere and don't care, but most of the younger guys all have greater aspirations than CAT. CAT is mearly a stepping stone to something better. I sure hope the actions of a few don't ruin things for all of us.

 

[VABB]

I hear you boomlrd, I guess the contract CAT has with Menlo doesn't mean anything to UPS pilots. It seems that some of these guys were born in a brown uniform. We have to build time somewhere so we can elevate to the sky god status of UPS, FEDEX and such.

Why would the CAT contract with Menlo be of any concern to the pilot group at UPS? They just get paid to fly the airplanes, not negotiate business transactions.

 

[IHaveAPension]

CAT is a contractor. When UPS takes over the former Menlo flying that is rightfully theirs now since UPS owns Menlo, CAT will just have to go out and find new contracts to fly. That way you can continue to build that precious jet time. Face it contractors, you are CONTRACTORS, and nothing more. Why would you rather see CAT and the others contractors continue to fly the Menlo freight vs. having UPS expand their pilot ranks that taking over Menlo is doing. Since you have aspired to work at UPS, you should be happy to see UPS taking over the flying since that will open up more hiring slots at UPS. OBTW, my friends at UPS have told me that since they started hiring again last year, they have NOT hired ONE pilot from the Menlo contractors.

My own airline has it's own problems with contractors that will be taken care of in our ongoing contract negotiations.

 

[flybrowntails]

dont really want to jump in to this discussion but wanted to say just a couple things:

1. IHAVEAPENSION: you said no menlo contractors hired? is/was ryan a menlo contractor--ups has hired several

2. 27DRIVER: You said "I am sure UPS will not honor our contract." Do you believe that brown "honors" or follows the contract it has with IPA?

fbt

 

[IHaveAPension]

dont really want to jump in to this discussion but wanted to say just a couple things:

1. IHAVEAPENSION: you said no menlo contractors hired? is/was ryan a menlo contractor--ups has hired several
fbt

Probably not the Ryan flying Emery 727s. Probably the Ryan flying vacation charters. I know same company, but Ryan hasn't flown Emery stuff in a while. Definately not since you guys started hiring again.

 

[27 driver]

Why would the CAT contract with Menlo be of any concern to the pilot group at UPS? They just get paid to fly the airplanes, not negotiate business transactions.

If you don't care about CAT's contract, why should we care about yours. We are just trying to make a paycheck and build time. Do the UPS pilots get joy out of putting other pilots on the street. CAT does not compete with UPS now and never will. Like I said, we are just trying to make a living.

 

[27 driver]

My question to those who think contractors are scumbags is this. Where can you build time and not be considered a scumbag? Most can not afford to work for a commuter unless you still live at home. Airlines like CAT provide a living wage while you are building that coveted jet time. Once again, we all must start somewhere. Where is a good place to build time?

 

[IHaveAPension]

If you don't care about CAT's contract, why should we care about yours. We are just trying to make a paycheck and build time. Do the UPS pilots get joy out of putting other pilots on the street. CAT does not compete with UPS now and never will. Like I said, we are just trying to make a living.

When you inevitably lose the Menlo flying, you will not automatically lose your job. You will still be employed by CAT. It's up to YOUR management to find other contracts for you to fly. This is the nature of being a contractor, you fly till the contract is terminated then you go and and fly something else. Your contract will be terminated by the end of this year. UPS pilots are not putting you out of a job. The flying is theirs and rightfully so. You contractors seem to think that because you have been flying the Menlo stuff in the past that you are ENTITLED to continue to fly it forever. Face reality, UPS BOUGHT Menlo, UPS' contract with it's pilots states that UPS' pilots will fly ALL domestic flying by UPS or any UPS affiliate. Didn't you realize that when you hired on at CAT that you were working for a CONTRACTOR? Well, the contracts about up and it's time for YOUR management to find something else for you guys to do. I have a suggestion that you can take to your management. Have them drive an hour southeast and hit up DHL for some flying out of ILN.

 

[IHaveAPension]

My question to those who think contractors are scumbags is this. Where can you build time and not be considered a scumbag? Most can not afford to work for a commuter unless you still live at home. Airlines like CAT provide a living wage while you are building that coveted jet time. Once again, we all must start somewhere. Where is a good place to build time?

Operators like CAT are considered scumbags for a whole slew of reasons. One is the caliber and background of the pilot group. Like you said yourself, CAT has many lifers that can't get a job at a respectable operator for reasons like, violations, accidents, DUI's, personality, personal demeanor, personal cleanliness, B.O., some that barely hable english, and some for being SCABS. The others are low time, inexperienced pilots that have no business in a large transport aircraft. You are there simply because management knows that they can pay you practically nothing and you'll be giddy for fact that you are building, as you say, your "precious" jet time. In fact, some of your pilots even paid to fly there.

The condition of your aircraft and the fact that your crews will knowingly and willingly fly broken aircraft due to the threat of losing your contract if you have a delay makes you a scumbag operator.

 

[Clyde]

If you don't care about CAT's contract, why should we care about yours. We are just trying to make a paycheck and build time. Do the UPS pilots get joy out of putting other pilots on the street. CAT does not compete with UPS now and never will. Like I said, we are just trying to make a living.

I'll jump into this.

27 driver, you bring up a good point. Each one at their respective company is looking out for his/her own best interests at those carriers, and rightfully so.

At UPS, the addition of former Menlo flying equates to growth, expansion, promotions, and the addition of more pilots to the seniority list. Naturally, that is what we would like to see.

Now if I were at CAT, my interests would be centered on keeping/gaining all of the flying the company could get, for the same reasons we would like to see more flying at brown.

To be totally honest with you, I wouldn't expect any of the contractor pilots to be supportive of any company which takes away some or all of their flying, nor would I harbor any ill will towards someone just trying to keep their jobs secure either.

"Do the UPS pilots get joy out of putting other pilots on the street. CAT does not compete with UPS now and never will. Like I said, we are just trying to make a living."
The answer to your first question is no, we do not feel any joy about putting other pilots (or anyone for that matter) out on the street.

With that being said, a cargo company has been purchased which used contract carriers to move its stuff, because it lacks the airframes to do it on its own. We have the ability to fly that freight on our own airframes and with our own crews, and since the company purchased a freight forwarder and not any of the airlines associated with it, we feel that we are rightfully entitled to fly that cargo ourselves.

CAT is not in the same business as UPS and FedEX, and probably will never compete with us directly. The pilots at CAT (and other contractors) are just trying to make a living and we, as fellow aviators, understand and respect that. I can only speak for myself, but I understand too that many are there trying to build their time so they can move on. I've been there and done it, and fully understand it.

 

[Clyde]

My question to those who think contractors are scumbags is this. Where can you build time and not be considered a scumbag? Most can not afford to work for a commuter unless you still live at home. Airlines like CAT provide a living wage while you are building that coveted jet time. Once again, we all must start somewhere. Where is a good place to build time?

I flew for two charter outfits that are commonly placed into the scumbag/redheaded stepchild/go park by the dumpster categories. It's not really a matter of who you are flying for is a scumbag, just don't put yourself into that category as a pilot.

What do I mean? Keep your record clean, no dui's, no violations, arrests, multiple traffic violations, etc. Also, personal hygeine. Stay in shape, bathe regularly (yes, I broke the bathing rule more than once), keep your uniform as clean and pressed as you can, and don't make yourself easy to associate with what others consider scumbags. In other words, let yourself stand out as a professional, especially if those around you are not perceived as one themselves by others.

Flying for a "scumbag" carrier does not mean that one has to be a scumbag.

You are gaining experience flying a 727, much more valuable than if you were flying many other types of aircraft. I don't think it is a bad thing to be flying it.

For some, like myself, the military was not an option to build time. While I had the opportunity to fly for a couple of regional airlines, I opted to fly cargo instead. The aircraft weren't as glamorous and the schedule was very demanding, but I didn't want to deal with passengers and I was able to earn a much higher wage flying auto parts. I even enjoyed it too. And you are correct, we must all start somewhere.

You pose the question "where is a good place to build time?" Here is my answer. Anywhere that will allow you to gain valuable experience where it is safe (sometimes relatively speaking), pays enough to be at or above liveable, offers a decent or good QOL, quick upgrade to the left seat (for PIC time and a pay raise), and where it is safe. Yes, I mentioned safe twice. If it will increase the odds of getting violated or killed (in that order), I would walk away from it.

 

[27 driver]

Clyde, thanks for all the positive comments, it seems that this forum usually is mean spirited. I do try to remain as professional as I can, and yes I do aspire to work at one of the major "cargo " carriers one day. I am quickly running up on 1000 pic jet, and hope to be competitive soon. Untill then I will continue flying 121 supplemental freight and be happy to have a job. I acually enjoy flying the 727. I do expect UPS to fly all their own freight as soon as you get the frames and crew. I just hope they phase us out slowly, not overnight. that way we can find other avenues without many furloughs. I have heard a rumor that it will be middle of 06.(just a rumor) Any input on that? The flying will slow down for CAT temporarily, but they will bounce back. I have not been to DAY lately so I don't hear any of the gossip.

 

[27 driver]

Operators like CAT are considered scumbags for a whole slew of reasons. One is the caliber and background of the pilot group. Like you said yourself, CAT has many lifers that can't get a job at a respectable operator for reasons like, violations, accidents, DUI's, personality, personal demeanor, personal cleanliness, B.O., some that barely hable english, and some for being SCABS. The others are low time, inexperienced pilots that have no business in a large transport aircraft. You are there simply because management knows that they can pay you practically nothing and you'll be giddy for fact that you are building, as you say, your "precious" jet time. In fact, some of your pilots even paid to fly there.

The condition of your aircraft and the fact that your crews will knowingly and willingly fly broken aircraft due to the threat of losing your contract if you have a delay makes you a scumbag operator.

I have a pension, you still didn't answer the question. Where is a good place to build time while earning a living. I know supplemental freight isn't a great job, but I am building time. Instead of popoing us all the time, help us out. Where did you build time. We all have the same aspirations.