UPS buys the old Emery Worldwide operation

[de727ups]

Rhoid

That's great that you can quote the contract but if you knew anything about UPS, you'd know that they have been finding ways around our contract for years.

 

[767-300ER]

UPS will have difficulty violating the IPA's excellent scope clause here in the US.

I predict the contractors will not be flying UPS branded freight in 2005, given the clear language (posted above).

 

[Rhoid]

UPS will have difficulty violating the IPA's excellent scope clause here in the US.

I predict the contractors will not be flying UPS branded freight in 2005, given the clear language (posted above).

I shure hope that the IPA is able to take over all the flying out of DAY, I'd much rather see UPS grow internally and hopefully start to hire than see the contractors continue to fly that work.

 

[kevdog]

I shure hope that the IPA is able to take over all the flying out of DAY, I'd much rather see UPS grow internally and hopefully start to hire than see the contractors continue to fly that work.

That's because you don't work for those contractors. Good luck trying to get on with UPS at your current flight experience or even within the next 10 years.

Can anyone guess how quickly the 70 lb box limitation and flying no HAZMATs will get removed from the UPS contract?

 

[Rhoid]

That's because you don't work for those contractors. Good luck trying to get on with UPS at your current flight experience or even within the next 10 years.

Can anyone guess how quickly the 70 lb box limitation and flying no HAZMATs will get removed from the UPS contract?

Actually I do have an in at UPS, I'm well aquainted with a long time manager there, and he tells me that infact, they do fly some hazmat around.

My manager friend told me that once I get my flight time up he would personally walk my resume in to flight operations HR.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Rhoid,

Everytime I send my resume to UPS it's goes directly to flight operations HR. Hope your "in" at UPS is real cuddly with someone "in" flight operations HR.

Stop goading everyone with your "in".

Unless you are employed in the upper echelons of UPS the only thing that you are doing is speculating; like the rest of us are, just what they will do with the Emery operation.

Remember that all those contractor pilots need jobs too, you might even find yourself working for one of them at some point in time, so it would be in your best interest to wish them the best of luck and not berate them.

There is an old saying:

"Be careful of how you treat people on your way up, because you will meet them on your way down."

Good Luck To Us All.

 

[servicemonkey]

Rhoid,

Kevdog is right-good luck.

Lots of folks that got hired by the Majors felt like they had it made, too.

Your attitude reveals a lack of maturity,humility, and self awareness that hopefully you can correct over the next few years with or without getting your butt kicked.

If it doesn't matter to you that enough good pilots have lost their jobs then keep your opinions to yourself.

brgds,
sm

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

Rhoid is right...

As long as we (IPA) have a solid scope clause agreement that specifically address the terms surrounding a buyout and then the flying, All the flying will be done by UPS pilots... Any violations of our Scope contract (particularly on domestic soil) will be address and resolved period... The shear mention of allowing any leniency in that contract to a feeder for any reason is total BS. UPS is very creative in finding ways to violate our contract and it’s a full time job for all of us to keep our eyes on the ball. The mere suggestion (from an individual or company) of anything other than compliance with a Unions contract is border line "SCABISM..." I guess if UPS fired all the IPA pilots (if and after we would go on strike) Some of you guys out there would think its ok to be first in line to take the "New" pilot jobs at UPS...

Bigbrowndc8

 

[CCDiscoB]

..I'd much rather see UPS grow internally and hopefully start to hire than see the contractors continue to fly that work...

I would rather the contractors fly the freight. But, I see what you're saying. I used to think the same thing. I hope Delta/American/UPS grows etc., etc. Then I got hired by someone else and I am very happy. I would venture that you may be hoping that these contractors grow too. I'd bet you'd have a better chance of flying for them then UPS.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Bigbrowndc8,

Just got the unexpurgiated version of your post via email notification in which you imply that certain individuals would take your job if lost by a strike. Hmmm. Unfortunately your sentiment and disdain for specific individuals because they have a dissenting opinion from yours rings loud in my ears. Just because someone works for an outfit that does not have a union does not imply that they are going to take your job if it is potentially lost by some political/legal action.

I was in a union, and that union lost me and 500+ other pilots our jobs. Many of my compatriots are working for the contract companies that replaced the inhouse operation. Does that make them wrong? Certainly not! They are doing what they have to do to put food on the table.

Is UPS & the IPA ready to respect the Emery pilots union contract and hire ALL the Emery pilots that lost their jobs by union busting? I doubt that the IPA would welcome us into the fold with open arms. If you think I am being presumptous just look at the contention between the APA and the ALPA units that represented the Reno Air & TWA pilots.

I think that it is undignified to take the issue of just how UPS is going to operate the Emery acquistion and make it a platform for you launch into a "scab" tyraid fueled by your paranoic rage.

No one wants to take your job, they just want to keep theirs!

Good Luck To Us All!

 

[767-300ER]

Saturday IPA Hotline on Menlo Acquisition:

At 12:00 noon on Tuesday, we were informed that UPS had bought Menlo
Worldwide Forwarding, Inc. In the Menlo press release it stated the
purchase includes Menlo Forwarding's worldwide air and ocean
forwarding operations, its North American services and facilities, its
operations hub in Dayton, Ohio, Menlo Worldwide Expedite! and Menlo
Worldwide Trade Services.

We took note though that in a press release on September 28th, World
Airways announced that it had expanded its contract with Menlo
Worldwide to provide DC-10 service between Dayton and Los Angeles
through the end of 2004, and MD-11 service between Dayton and Hong
Kong in October and November 2004. The release went on to say that
World's current MD-11 route between Dayton and Brussels flown five
times a week for Menlo will be changed to DC-10 service,
with the same schedule. World also said it provided ad hoc flying to
support Menlo's Dayton operations.

On Tuesday of next week, the IPA will be having its monthly Scope
meeting with UPS. We will be very interested in seeing how UPS's
purchase of Menlo and the current contracts with World Airways are
explained. While all items of the Menlo purchase may not be fully
disclosed at this meeting, you can be assured that the scope and
impact of this acquisition will be a major topic of discussion as we
continue negotiations.

As we said the day of the purchase, it is our full intent to support
UPS in these types of decisions as it will only increase the number of
IPA crewmembers required to fly any additional volume that might
result from an acquisition of this nature. But, we must always
continue our fight to ensure that growth for UPS also means growth for
the IPA.

 

[boomlrd]

Can we little contractors keep our jobs?

Does the IPA plan on forcing UPS to hiring those of us who are current contractors for Emery?? After all we have not taken anyone's job, we already work here! I get tired of hearing the crying from union guys about how they have to keep such a close eye on their jobs or someone non union might come in and "scab" em'. Well it sounds to me as if you IPA guys love the idea of taking our jobs, where is the fairness in that?

 

[redneck jihad]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out since the DAY-BRU run is mostly military freight and may be part World's AMC award. Anybody know if World and UPS are on the same AMC team?

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

First and formost, understand that the IPA has always petitioned UPS to hire pilots of other companies that UPS bought. (First comes to mind of pilots on property is the Challenge Air guys) The decision to not hire any of the Challenge Air guys was made by UPS not the IPA. As you all know, UPS will do what they want regardless of what we at the union wants. We (the IPA) consider ourselves to be a brotherhood/sisterhood group that supports all pilots and do what we can to show our support. That being said, support comes in many ways, but it will not come to those who would undermind our efforts to maintain a strong scope agreement with UPS. As far as hiring or bringing on any extra pilots to the UPS property, I am in full support!!! (Companies with pilots on their property, Its diffucult to make the case for Sub-contractors, although, I certainly would be open to that too) (as long as your Jr to me...LOL)

For UPS to honor the agreement with World, would seriously violate our current Scope agreement with UPS. This is a preditory environment that we work in and unfortunatly, There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. UPS bought Menlo, therefore IMHO, Its UPS now, not Menlo. If it touches UPS in any way, its flown by UPS. End of subject. I think someone referenced Reno Air and TWA as to how bad things could be. IMHO, I think the Reno guys go treated fairly, I am certainly no expert on their deal, but it seems that they were treated fairly. As far as TWA, Im not trying to slam them, I was hired at TWA, (in the pool) and considered it to be one of the nicest places to be that I never had an opportunity to work at. It sucks that they were not treated better by AA, but again, IMHO, After the events on 9/11, Its doubtful that TWA would even still be around judging from the problems that were having during the "Boom" years in the late 90's and early 00's. The situation at TWA is debatable. Im not here to argue the points of TWA and AA, however I do think that most the TWA guys should be lucky they have a AA Senority number to "possibly" go back to, because had not AA bought them, Carl would have put them in the grave post 9/11 (its my OPINION)

As far as Emory Pilots, Do they even still exist? I heard they dont. Menlo was sub-contracting to get their flying done. If there is a chance to hire all the pilots effected by this, I say hire them. but I doubt UPS will do that. As far as the Subs flying the current contract, I think you all know where I stand. We will continue to dissagree.

And yes, IMHO, if you knowingly violate someones elses Scope in a buyout senerio like this for your own gain, I see that as Scabism. Thats just me, I would never do it and I would expect someone to do it to me. When I worked at ASA, Comair went on strike, ASA/DAL tried to make us fly some of Comairs routes while they were on strike. We refused... The route had to be flown by management pilots... End of point. Throw out someone elses scope to help yourself is just like crossing the strike line to get some extra flying in while everyone else stand their ground... If you were in a Union before, you'd know that...

Bigbrowndc8

 

[Publishers]

Understand

I understand how the contract is worded but I am still not sure that Menlo qualifies as it is a different business than UPS and offering a different product not necessarily even under the UPS name.

A freight forwarder consolidates other peoples product and forwards it to a different location. Unless they are contemplating changing the business, you are not hauling UPS products but someone elses.

I have a feeling this is going to turn on what the relationship is between Menlo and the people flying out of Dayton. It will probably be a period of time before we know how this fits into the system of UPS or perhaps, it does not fit.

Air makes up such a small part of UPS total handling, they might have wanted it for a truck or rail center.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Bigbrowndc8,

So what you are saying is that all the contract pilots should sacrifice their jobs for you because your company bought out the operating entity? I can hear the cockpit conversation now in the Express.Net, CAT aircraft. "Geez guys, I am just so glad that UPS bought Emery. Those UPS/IPA guys are so cool, I really hope that all our contracts get dumped so those great guys at IPA will have scope protection. I am sure that the IPA will work really hard to try to get us all hired on at 'Big Brown, if they don't, it will be really neat to be out of a job, just think about how much time well have at home with no money". Boy, talk about a fantasy!

The point is this, all those contract pilots are flying legitimate work and certainly are not in contention with your scope clause just because of their previous existence. Your problem is what your company does with the purchase of Emery, not if the contract companies and hard working innocent pilots will still be flying and supplying the lift. Don't put the blame on the pilots. Don't expect all those contract pilots to rally around your IPA causes just because they may become the unfortunate cannon fodder of corporate politics and policy. They are all just potential victims of circumstance, that does not make them scabs. Also realize that there will be many other people at these small contract companies that will also be affected by this buyout if they get dumped by UPS. Expecting support from of bunch of people (most non-union) that would loose their jobs to support your scope clause is the most ridiculous extent of conceit that I have ever heard of.

Yeah, the ex-Emery pilots (yes, they still exist - check out www.emerycrew.org) had a scope clause too. Lot of good it did us.

I find it overwhelmingly entertaining the amount of whining that comes out of the mouths of people that have absolutely no concept of just how good they have it. You don't have concept one of what those contract pilots have to go through everyday. Just because you are employed by the 400 pound gorilla of the freight world does not mean that a bunch of smaller carriers are the sacrifical lambs to be served at a banquet for the IPA. It would be interesting to see how you would feel if Fedex bought out UPS and kept all their flying inhouse with no integration of pilots, certainly the shoe would be on the other foot in that case, I am sure that you would be screaming loud and long for your job protection and not buckle without a fight to protect the Fedex pilot's scope clause.

Unfortunately in the end all those contract pilots will probably loose their jobs. They will have my deepest sympathy. Your security at UPS will not be threatened. I bet not ONE of those contract pilots will ever be hired on at UPS.

Good for you on being employed by UPS, just realize that it doesn't make you any better than anyone else - only luckier! Your arrogance is just insufferable.

As to TWA & Reno Air, maybe you should have a conversation with those pilots and see just how they feel about the APA and their feelings about the acquistions and how they were integrated into the seniority list.

Does all this rhetoric make me a scab? Have I crossed a picket line? Have I engaged in actions that impinge upon your ability to make a living? Nope. I just disagree with your opinion.

Have a good day!

Good Luck To Us All! (We all need all the luck we can get!)

 

[boomlrd]

Excellent response!

Fearless Freep- Excellent response, you put into words just exactly how the situation is!!

P.S. I believe most flying will remain the same regardless of the opinions of the IPA, I would love to see the IPA threaten a strike over this little flying!! HA HA will never happen!

 

[Bellerophon]

Menlo flying

World Airways pilots have a do not cross picket line language in the current agreement. So all that must be done is the formation of a legal picket line and World Airways pilots will honor that line. This is why we no longer fly for FedEx. During their last contract countdown FedEx management was very upset when World Airways management told then that World would not provide any lift in case of a strike. World Airways was told that they would not work for FedEx again.

However, I believe the some of the cargo from the DAY to BRU is part of the World Airways AMC award. Therefore World Airways scoped work. The return portion I believe is DHL/Menlo freight? As for the contracted work for '04, I am sure there are provisions to cancell if need be. Bottom line, I think UPS pilots should fly UPS routes however they aquire them. Unless you have negotiated scope or fragmentation lanquage with your current employer you are just along for the ride.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I can't speak to the other assertions here, except to say that I think it's a little bit strange that people feel entitled to a job when their company is bought out, but I can say that UPS does handle some hazmats. Or did, anyway, about four years ago.

Regards,
Boris

 

[steamgauge]

uuuuuummm, scope!

G'luck.

Rhoid is right...

As long as we (IPA) have a solid scope clause agreement that specifically address the terms surrounding a buyout and then the flying, All the flying will be done by UPS pilots... Any violations of our Scope contract (particularly on domestic soil) will be address and resolved period... The shear mention of allowing any leniency in that contract to a feeder for any reason is total BS. UPS is very creative in finding ways to violate our contract and it’s a full time job for all of us to keep our eyes on the ball. The mere suggestion (from an individual or company) of anything other than compliance with a Unions contract is border line "SCABISM..." I guess if UPS fired all the IPA pilots (if and after we would go on strike) Some of you guys out there would think its ok to be first in line to take the "New" pilot jobs at UPS...

Bigbrowndc8