Unrealistic Expectations

[FurloughedAgain]

Copied from another thread...

Ok folks, for those of you who didnt live through the last downturn, its time for a wakeup call.

In the early to mid-90s there were no pilot jobs. Airlines like Allegheny, Piedmont, and American Eagle "required" a minimum of 2500-3000 hours total-time and over 1000 hours multi-engine.

So few jobs were available that Comair and Flightsafety started their controversial "pay-for-training" program and even after the privilege of paying $10,000 to play, they still had minimum requirements of 1500 hours total-time and 500 hours multi-engine.

Fast forward to September 2002. There are over 7000 furloughed ALPA pilots on the street. US Airways will furlough another 500 in the next 6 months. United has barely BEGUN to furlough and will likely put another 1000 pilots on the street in the next year. These are pilots who already made their way through the regionals and moved on -- many of them with over 10,000 hours total time, a handful of type-ratings, and some extremely valuable experience. The longer they are on furlough, the more likely they are to resign their seniority for those companies who require it.

Supply and demand allowed the extremely low-time pilots and the university-"bridge" pilots to find regional airline employment over the last few years. Supply and demand allowed pilots who were hired with 300-1000 hours to upgrade in a year or two at these regionals.

Supply and demand just raised the stakes. The competition for ANY flying job from flight instructor to F/O at Comair just got a lot tougher. The upgrade time at virtually ANY regional airline right now just exceeded 5...6...7... years (nobody is leaving from the top -- where would they go?)

For those of you who havent been through the downturn...hang on tight. It isnt going to be enjoyable...it isnt going to be fast...but eventually the cycle will reverse. In the meantime, you're going to have to share the wealth with relatively low-time guys like me.

Times have changed.

 

[chperplt]

Do you teach at DAB or PRC? I left DAB in Feb of 01..

 

[Timebuilder]

jmac77

I agree. If you have read my posts, you already know how thankful I am. Think about it: a former feature writer/DJ/newshound/wrench turner/low timer gets a jet job in a down market.

A miracle? I think so.

 

[banned username 2]

FurloughedAgain....

EXCELLENT POST!

Good luck to you and your family!

 

[corky]

Let this be a lesson to those of us going through our first aviation down cycle that we can't rely on one skill or one source of income. Especially in this business. If you're furloughed, use the time to get another skill in another industry. Go take some AutoCAD classes or real estate appraisal classes or anything that will give you potential of earning money outside of aviation.

 

[bobbysamd]

It's deja vu, all over again

Apologies to Yogi Berra, again.

Excellent post. I saw it on the other board and cited to it a couple of days ago during the 737 type discussion. Thanks for posting it here so folks who work this side of the street can read it. Everything you write is accurate. I can vouch for the accuracy because I was there during those years, struggling to climb the ladder.

I shared a similar hopeful timetable as Jmac's. I was hired at Riddle-Prescott with 50 hours of multi. A year later, I had my ATP and maybe 300 of multi. I accepted a contract as a stage check pilot, for money equal to a commuter captain's, and could not interview right away. Then, the Desert Shield, Desert Storm and the recession hit. I did get some interviews about that time, but the writing was on the wall. I was SOL because of those events and probably my age.

I remember clearly how P-F-T sprung up ten years ago. My hatred of P-F-T is borne of those times. Really, our current times are very much a repeat of those times. But, those days got better and these days will get better, too, because bad times always get better.

Although I was "just" a flight instructor, I remember how grateful I was that I was earning a living as a pilot while so many more-experienced pilots could not find work. For all I know, they never came back.

Best of luck to you.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You know, I wrote this as reaction to the many conversations and arguments I've shared with my flying partners over the last few months.

As a furloughed major airline pilot I often have a difficult time picking which side of the issue (any issue) I want to argue. My perspective is skewed by the time I spent in a Boeing cockpit.

Today though, I'm a regional airline pilot -- and I'm darned proud of it. I'm ecstatic to have found a flying job ... regardless of the fact that it is in the right seat of a turboprop. I love flying, so when one was offered, I took a job flying. I'm a pilot -- pilots fly.

Its different this time though. When I first went to work for the regionals in the early 90s the guys in the left seat had all been there before. Most of them not only flight instructed, but also flew freight or charter for a few thousand hours before being offered the "privilege" of flying a Metroliner into Utica, New York in the middle of a blinding snowstorm. These pilots had upwards of 3000 hours total time before they took this job flying a 19-seat Jetstream or Metro, 10 legs a day, with no autopilot.

I always had a smile on my face when I spun the prop (had to cool the shaft) after each flight because I was proud to be an "airline pilot".

Fast forward to today -- and back to the unique perspective that I wanted to share with you. Many of the pilots who were hired at the regionals in the late 90's (a decade) later were hired directly from university flight programs (UND, ERAU, you name it...). Many of them did very little flying outside of school -- maybe a few hundred hours of flight instruction and not much more. They came to the regionals and in less than two years -- sometimes less than a SINGLE year -- they have upgraded to Captain on high performance turboprops and regional jets. They have autopilots, EFIS, and FMCs...a long way from the Metros I flew a decade ago.

What amazes me is how ANGRY these pilots are.

They're angry that it took them so LONG (?) to upgrade.

They're angry that they're flying a prop, while their ex-room-mate is flying a jet.

They're angry that there is no flowthrough and that this precludes them from going directly to a major with no interview whatsoever.

They're angry that the pay and workrules they are operating under are not what they expected.

I think that their expectations were unreasonable -- and I blame it completely on the aviation universities. For four years these young men and women were groomed to expect greatness. They watched as their friends graduated and moved quickly to the regionals, flew for two or three years and moved on to United. Heck...many of those people were only at United for 4 or 5 years before they upgraded! Why didnt anyone tell them the truth?

These folks dont know what "Peoples Express" is. They vaguely nod if you mention "Braniff" or "Eastern". They heard something about a furlough in the early 90s -- but they were in elementary school then...

All they know is that they have the precious 1000 hours PIC turbine and why the HECK is Southwest not calling? And whats this OLD MAN doing in the copilots seat? "When I tell him that I expect to be at American in a year, why does he grin like that, silently staring out the window?"

Unrealistic expectations. We have an obligation to share what we've learned with these young men and women. To remind them that they really didnt jump any hurdles to get where they are -- frankly, they had it pretty easy compared to the generation that came before.

They'll never know the fear you felt conducting your first single-pilot ILS to minimums-100 in blowing snow with the aircraft covered in ice...the boss yelling, "fly or you're fired!".

They will never be able to understand what it was like being a copilot for 4 years in a 19 seat airliner...no autopilot ... Utica ... Syracuse ... Binghamton ... "May I take your bag ma'am? Yes I'm old enough to fly this thing." ... Watertown ... Ogdensburg ... "Was that lightning?" ... Plattsburgh ...

And you'll never catch them spinning the fan after we land in Binghamton on a snowy winter night.

So pardon me if I take a deep breath and stare out the window when you wax poetic about the Boeing 777 seat which is waiting for you. If I dont respond when you complain about how it took you 18 months to upgrade to captain on a PROP... forgive me.

I'm just happy to have a job flying... and its a beautiful day for flying isnt it? Mind if I take this leg Captain? Nah...I think I'll leave the autopilot off -- just for old time's sake.

 

[banned username 2]

Kudos once again FurloughedAgain...

You are a man who truely has a clear view of this profession...

I have tried to explain to MANY of the young new pilots that what we have experienced in the past couple years (Pre-2001) is an anomoly and not the "usual"... they don't get it... Someday they will learn, that day may be today...

These kinds of downturns can be good for the industry, they clean out the ranks of people who don't REALLY want to do the job, but got into flying because they thought they could be a 737 Capt. in 4 years... and then sit back and make $200k/yr working 8 days a month...

Today is what I call a "Reality Check".... Some people will find reality too hard to take and will turn in their wings for some other career... to them I say "Good luck and goodbye"... They will make room for those who truely want this career. To those who are going to rough it out.. hang in there, this profession is one continous rough, bumpy and winding road... But remember Life is not about the destination, it is the journey...

 

[MetroSheriff]

FurloughedAgain,

You sir, are my hero.

I know exactly how you feel. When they complain, I just smile to myself. I was left out in the cold with no flying job after the Gulf War fiasco. Sometimes I fly with the younger folks who are mad, and think life is over, because they are not at a major by age 26. It is almost funny. I am so happy to be back flying and have a decent job with a good company, it is hard to complain.

Even better are the ones who like to bemoan the competition and tight "job market" (pre 9/11 that it is). "Yeah it's competetive alright" I'd say, "When did you start flying?". "Well I got my private in '97..."

Oh boy, another salty dog.

I'm not bitter. Don't get me wrong. Quite the contrary. Their timing was perfect. Good for them. It is just funny to hear, that is all. After we hit bottom this time and start to climb the ladder again, they will begin to appreciate just how good they had it.

 

[El Cid Av8or]

I'll drink to that!

FurloughedAgain:

Great post!

I'll see you on the airways. I will be down low and slow for a while as I pay my dues by instructing and turning props after shutting down the engines so just wave when you go overhead.

Blue skies, tailwinds and good luck!

 

[T1bubba]

Excellent posts!

A couple years ago, back when the poolee list at the top of the page was for UAL guys, there was a discussion on this board about how long the upside of this cycle would last. It was predicted that the sub-1000 hour regional pilots and the 4-year captains at the majors were more of an anomoly and would not last long. Many people argued that things were changing, that this good time was going to last... after all just look at how the market is going through the roof! What could happen???

One individual went on to talk about the ten year cycle in aviation and how things tend to take a turn for the worse shortly after the beginning of a new decade. He talked about how important those extra few seniority numbers were, since it could mean the difference between furlough and holding on to your job. The majority of people on the board thought that this was an overly pessimistic view of things since everyone was hiring like crazy.

I also thought that the prediction may have been a bit on the gloomy side myself, but I also saw that the cycle he talked about seemed to be correct. That's why I still remember that one particular thread.

I believe it was pilotyip who made those comments. If so, kudo's to you- and the next time you look into your crystal ball if you happen to see any stock tips please pass them along.

T1bubba

 

[surplus1]

FurloughedAgain, and Metro

Very nice posts. Especially yours FA. Bet I could tell you the same story from another time, as it realtes to your cycle.

The tide ebbs and flows. Some of us catch it coming in, others going out. Some who are here for the money drown and disappear (I say with good riddance).

It certainly is a special thing for those who really love to fly for the sake of flying. Those will always be here and in another time another one will write as you just did.

Best wishes to you.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Touches the ol' heart.

FA, you're a fortunate person in that you seem to enjoy your job. While I know there is alot of complaining on this board, at least you're doing something want to do (too bad the realities of the business world get in the way of that enjoyment sometimes!). I am "envious" of you folks. It beats flying a desk. Yes, I don't have to worry about getting furloughed (in theory) but there are many days I find myself just drudging along at my job.

Best wishes and may you never get tired of the view from above -the real "executive suite"!

 

[banned username 2]

I am "envious" of you folks. It beats flying a desk. Yes, I don't have to worry about getting furloughed (in theory) but there are many days I find myself just drudging along at my job.

Don't kid yourself, my company "Furloughed" over 50,000 "desk-pilots" this year... no one, and I mean no one is immune to a bad economy and such...

Every job has its good points and bad points... don't be too envious of the pilots who fly from day to day professionally... Sometimes that 9 to 5 desk job looks pretty attractive!

Just remember in good times and bad, you always have your family and friends... a virtual port in the storm...

 

[BigFlyr]

Furloughedagain,

I know exactly how you feel, having been there-done that, now I'm waiting (praying) for an opening at a local freight carrier so I can fly the ol' "San Antonio Sewer Pipe". That, being a job I had over five years ago, then after flying glass for the last few years I'm not sure I'll be able to. Hey you and I along with thousands others are also "furloughedagain". If that job doesn't pan out I'm going to have to do something other than fly until things turn around or I get called back to my old job.

I too just grinned the last time some guy ten years younger said he was going to UPS next year... He's still a 727 FE for a bottom feeder freight carrier and there's no upgrade in sight!

 

[AZaviator]

I think there were two quotes on this thread that people should read, and read again, and keep in mind throughout their flying careers:

For those of you who havent been through the downturn...hang on tight. It isnt going to be enjoyable...it isnt going to be fast...but eventually the cycle will reverse.

and

To those who are going to rough it out.. hang in there, this profession is one continous rough, bumpy and winding road... But remember Life is not about the destination, it is the journey...

I think if you focus more on the journey to flying the big iron, all the people you'll meet, all the places you'll get to go, all the experiences you have..... rather than the end goal, it will be a much more enjoyable ride.

And, as quoted above, remember, this industry is cyclical. What comes around goes around. It might not be the greatest now, but it will eventually turn around, and all of us will have significantly better chances of attaining our dream flying job.

 

[bobbysamd]

You know, I wrote this as reaction to the many conversations and arguments I've shared with my flying partners over the last few months . . . . Many of the pilots who were hired at the regionals in the late 90's (a decade) later were hired directly from university flight programs (UND, ERAU, you name it...). Many of them did very little flying outside of school -- maybe a few hundred hours of flight instruction and not much more. They came to the regionals and in less than two years -- sometimes less than a SINGLE year -- they have upgraded to Captain on high performance turboprops and regional jets . . . . What amazes me is how ANGRY these pilots are . . . .

I started reading this board just over a year ago after having virtually no contact or thought about aviation for eight years. I, too, couldn't believe the anger, and how so many of these folks felt that they were owed. Nine-ten years ago, when I was in the same position as many of them were before hire but several years older than them, I would have jumped for joy just to be invited to class at a commuter. For me, flying an RJ would have been way beyond my wildest dreams. Read my other posts. I'm sure my frustration is apparent. But, not once did I ever feel that I was owed. Therefore, I, too, don't understand the anger.

I think that their expectations were unreasonable -- and I blame it completely on the aviation universities. For four years these young men and women were groomed to expect greatness. They watched as their friends graduated and moved quickly to the regionals, flew for two or three years and moved on to United. Heck...many of those people were only at United for 4 or 5 years before they upgraded! Why didnt anyone tell them the truth?

Agreed. May I throw in another dig against Kit Darby for fomenting these unreasonable expectations by way of his "pilot shortage?"

Once again, stupendous comments. I hope that the folks to whom you're directing them would take your comments to heart and reflect on them, and not blow them off.

 

[mar]

Words fail me

Furloughed Again--To be perfectly honest I can't ever recall ever reading any of your other posts, but after the one above I worship the ground you walk on.

You said everything I feel.

Peace

 

[Typhoon1244]

What amazes me is how ANGRY these pilots are. They're angry that it took them so LONG (?) to upgrade.

I switched seats in the Brasilia after twelve months. So happy I almost sh_t myself. I had expected it to take four or five years. It took my father eighteen.

They're angry that they're flying a prop, while their ex-room-mate is flying a jet.

Prop, jet, ornithopter...I didn't care. It was an airliner!

They're angry that there is no flowthrough and that this precludes them from going directly to a major with no interview whatsoever.

Heck, if we'd had a flow-through, some Delta guy would be sitting in my seat right now. I didn't want it then, and I certainly don't want it now...or ever!

When I saw the second 767 hit the WTC, I said to myself, "self, you're going to retire as an ASA pilot...maybe in the left seat of a 70-seat jet, probably making about what dad was making in the left seat of the Nine at Eastern." You know what? There are a heckuva lot worse places to be.

They're angry that the pay and workrules they are operating under are not what they expected.

I wouldn't trust anybody who interviews without knowing about the pay and work rules of the company in question. I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. Besides, with the exception of the size of the paycheck, my working conditions are not much less than they would be at a major anyway, thanks in part to ALPA.

Angry? You know how I feel about my two-bit little regional job? Lucky! Seriously, galactically, f___ing lucky! Hey, I didn't get this job because I'm Chuck Yeager or John King. I was in exactly the right place at exactly the right time.

Just wanted you to know there are some of us "young guys" out here with some perspective.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Middle of the night rant....

I hesitated to write a reply to the original post, because I fit the young demographic in question. I was in middle school during the early 90's, attended an aviation university, and am now awaiting a class date with a large regional airline at the age of 24. And you know what...I AM THE LUCKIEST S.O.B. IN THE WORLD! I still love each and every minute in the air, whether in a C172, Baron, King Air, or whatever. I have been extraordinarily blessed thus far in my career, and hope that I never lose sight of why I got into this business to begin with.

Your generation, Furloughed Again and others, is the one that I revered as I was growing up. Remember that 10 year old kid with the ear to ear grin as he boarded your Beech 1900 in Bradford, PA in the dead of winter? That was me. I watched you as you performed your walk around and wanted to run out onto the ramp and ask you all kinds of questions about this strange looking bird. I was disappointed when you closed the cockpit curtain because I wanted to see everything that was going on up there in the front office. We lined up on the runway and the power from those mighty PT-6's pushed me back in my seat, and suddenly we were flying!!! The snowflakes were basked in an inte rmittent red light as we climbed into the night, on our way to Pittsburgh, "or wherever your final destination happens to be". It was that night that I knew for sure I never wanted to do anything else for a living. I was going to become an airline pilot.

I didn't know that night that you probably ate crackers from a vending machine for dinner because you couldn't afford a real meal, or that your 9 year old car was on its last leg without a replacement in sight. I didn't know that your ticket to the right seat of that 1900 included spending a few thousand hours flying cancelled checks or car parts in a decrepit old Apache or Baron. I found all that out later when I was mapping out my own course to the right seat, and you know what...I WAS STILL WILLING TO DO IT. A good economy and a huge amount of luck dictated that I didn't have to, and for that I am genuinely blessed. So here's my deal to you. First and foremost, I will remember how truly blessed I am to be flying for a living in whatever capacity it happens to be. I will remember the sacrifices you and others made to make it possible for me to sit in the right seat of an airliner under a contract which improves with each negotiation. I will show you the respect that you deserve for going through hell and back to get to where you are today and for working so hard to make the industry better for us all. In return, I ask only that you do not assume that just because I am young that I am a punk who feels I am entitled to something for nothing. Please continue to use the benefit of your experience to teach me the ins and outs of the industry and show me how to restore honor to our profession. It's a different ballgame with some different players, but the rules are still basically the same. We must work together in a symbiotic relationship to better the profession as a whole instead of focusing on our myopic little corners of it.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Open forums like this are an excellent means to gain different perspective and learn a little something about each other and the profession that we love. Everybody keep up the good work.