Unneeded pain and cost for Pinnacle Corp. Airlines

[Raskal]

... This was a pure hail to the senior, screw the junior provision....

I believe that's almost a literal translation to what "mesaba" means in aramaic.

Seriously, this group is just amazing in its ability to devote any and all resources to one side of the list.

 

[marycon]

In a way you are right. There was a VERY LOUD SIGNIFICANT b!tching by the relatively more senior Saab captains stuck on a dying fleet. Mind you ALL of these captains had numerous chances to bid to either jet and CHOSE to stay on the Saab until the tides turned. By then it was too late and they were trapped til the end, and they wanted off because of the now dying schedules and lower pay/productivity. Basically now they wanted their cake and well a bownie with it oh and how bout some ice cream all to eat at once.... This provision was thier appeasment. It allowed the most senior ones to "voluntarily" jump off the sinking ship early and basically still go where they wanted. (there are some still waiting for base closure to go to the 900 by displacement rather than vacancy, Just wait to see the DTW base closure to see what I mean). This was a pure hail to the senior, screw the junior provision....

That is not true at all. Since the Saab reductions began there have been very very few vacancies for the Saab guys to go over to either the 900 or 200, and on those that there have been Saab people have jumped to a different aircraft.

Many had also taken the Saab upgrade before the seat locks were were freed and wouldn't have taken the jet because schedules and quality of life were much better on the Saab. Hindsight being 20/20 and if known the Saabs would have gone away then it would have been a totally different story.

You I recall waited for a 900 vacancy and then have b*tched the entire time on how unfair it has been that you have been on reserve the entire time. That's the reason many of us took the Saab in the first place because the 900 was always going to be a senior a/c. Again had it been known the Saabs were going to leave then it would have been a different story and you probably never would have ended up on the 900 because a more senior pilot would have prevented you from doing so, myself included even if I had wanted the 900 to begin with and you would be just as happy as all of us on the Saab now, which of course is your current state of happiness on the 900 it seems.

On a side note it is completely ridiculous for XJ pilots to be blaming 9E/9L pilots and 9E/9L pilots to be blaming XJ pilots for this entire thing. As pilots we have no control (nor philisophically should we) over whether we were to be bought, sold, merged etc. Had it been up to the pilots we would have stayed separate companies (XJ would have shrunk and furloughed with the loss of the Saabs, 9E down the road would have faced the same fate of ComAir and 9L would probably have been the most stable of the 3). But here we are and it is what it is and the majority of the pilots will be affected one way or the other by displacements, retraining, domicile changes etc, but it does us no good for me to blame you or you to blame me.

 

[Flyer1015]

As pilots we have no control (nor philisophically should we) over whether we were to be bought, sold, merged etc. Had it been up to the pilots we would have stayed separate companies (XJ would have shrunk and furloughed with the loss of the Saabs, 9E down the road would have faced the same fate of ComAir and 9L would probably have been the most stable of the 3). But here we are and it is what it is and the majority of the pilots will be affected one way or the other by displacements, retraining, domicile changes etc, but it does us no good for me to blame you or you to blame me.

Actually, "one list" was pushed by the pilot unions at 9E/XJ/9L. Not management. They accepted.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I believe that's almost a literal translation to what "mesaba" means in aramaic.

Seriously, this group is just amazing in its ability to devote any and all resources to one side of the list.

It's the difference in attitudes of: Mesaba; what do you want in 10 years when you are in that senior position, Pinnacle; What the hell do you mean you care what happens here in 5 years, you'll be at a major by then.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

That is not true at all. Since the Saab reductions began there have been very very few vacancies for the Saab guys to go over to either the 900 or 200, and on those that there have been Saab people have jumped to a different aircraft.

Many had also taken the Saab upgrade before the seat locks were were freed and wouldn't have taken the jet because schedules and quality of life were much better on the Saab. Hindsight being 20/20 and if known the Saabs would have gone away then it would have been a totally different story.

You I recall waited for a 900 vacancy and then have b*tched the entire time on how unfair it has been that you have been on reserve the entire time. That's the reason many of us took the Saab in the first place because the 900 was always going to be a senior a/c. Again had it been known the Saabs were going to leave then it would have been a different story and you probably never would have ended up on the 900 because a more senior pilot would have prevented you from doing so, myself included even if I had wanted the 900 to begin with and you would be just as happy as all of us on the Saab now, which of course is your current state of happiness on the 900 it seems.

On a side note it is completely ridiculous for XJ pilots to be blaming 9E/9L pilots and 9E/9L pilots to be blaming XJ pilots for this entire thing. As pilots we have no control (nor philisophically should we) over whether we were to be bought, sold, merged etc. Had it been up to the pilots we would have stayed separate companies (XJ would have shrunk and furloughed with the loss of the Saabs, 9E down the road would have faced the same fate of ComAir and 9L would probably have been the most stable of the 3). But here we are and it is what it is and the majority of the pilots will be affected one way or the other by displacements, retraining, domicile changes etc, but it does us no good for me to blame you or you to blame me.

You must be thinking of someone else, I actually don't mind reserve all that much if I can get the few days off I need (now granted that has been less and less lately while flying us all over guarantee, And as such I am ready for a change like just about all of us that have been on reserve on the 900s. Almost 4 years with only a displacement in sight kinda kills morale.) I fully expect to end up on the 200 soon (and likely still on reserve, at least I will have the options of P3 again.) Even if I got pushed to Jet FO I'd still bid reserve at least part of the time. I'd rather do that then 4+ 4 days a month.

 

[Smarta$$]

You idiots will be the downfall of Pinnacle, as you were the downfall of Mesaba, MAIR, etc.

How? You don't know ONE DAMN THING about Mesaba's finances or it's trip through BK. The bankruptcy was INTENTIONALLY caused by NW and MAIR. Period. They were profitable and stable until NW filed BK and withheld payment. MAIR took their millions and hid it under the pillow. The pilots NEVER had anything to do with it.

And you wonder why this entire industry thinks Pinnacle pilots are a joke. Keep up the good work...

 

[gojo]

How? You don't know ONE DAMN THING about Mesaba's finances or it's trip through BK. The bankruptcy was INTENTIONALLY caused by NW and MAIR. Period. They were profitable and stable until NW filed BK and withheld payment. MAIR took their millions and hid it under the pillow. The pilots NEVER had anything to do with it.

And you wonder why this entire industry thinks Pinnacle pilots are a joke. Keep up the good work...

You need to learn to ignore flyprdu along with a couple of others on here. He's a juvenile idiot, and I don't believe they represent the entire Pinnacle pilot group. If I'm wrong, God help us all

 

[Flyprdu]

How? You don't know ONE DAMN THING about Mesaba's finances or it's trip through BK. The bankruptcy was INTENTIONALLY caused by NW and MAIR. Period. They were profitable and stable until NW filed BK and withheld payment. MAIR took their millions and hid it under the pillow. The pilots NEVER had anything to do with it.

And you wonder why this entire industry thinks Pinnacle pilots are a joke. Keep up the good work...

Boy, you're pretty pious now that you've moved on. Since you've got absolutely no dog in this fight, I suggest you move on to your greener pastures.

My point was that it's XJ's absolute inflexibility that is intentionally causing a partial system flush - costing the company hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in unnecessary opportunity and training costs. It's not hard to imagine that the pilots caused some of the fiscal hardships of their former company.

A lot of the XJ guys are speaking of bankruptcy as a joke, meanwhile absolving themselves of any responsibility in it. It strikes me as cavalier and oblivious.

Lastly, Gojo, I suppose you would like to have us Pinnacle guys lay down and play nice while you railroad us with your displacements. I'm sorry, but I can't do that. What is happening isn't right. It isn't equitable.

XJ is like a man who fell out of a window and grabbed someone as he went out... making sure that the other guy cushioned his fall.

 

[CptMurf]

Boy, you're pretty pious now that you've moved on. Since you've got absolutely no dog in this fight, I suggest you move on to your greener pastures.

My point was that it's XJ's absolute inflexibility that is intentionally causing a partial system flush - costing the company hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in unnecessary opportunity and training costs. It's not hard to imagine that the pilots caused some of the fiscal hardships of their former company.

A lot of the XJ guys are speaking of bankruptcy as a joke, meanwhile absolving themselves of any responsibility in it. It strikes me as cavalier and oblivious.

Lastly, Gojo, I suppose you would like to have us Pinnacle guys lay down and play nice while you railroad us with your displacements. I'm sorry, but I can't do that. What is happening isn't right. It isn't equitable.

XJ is like a man who fell out of a window and grabbed someone as he went out... making sure that the other guy cushioned his fall.

The reason these provisions were in the contract, was to protect from massive shifts like this within the assumed "one" airline. Of course it was designed to cost the company money, this is the protection for us from losing QOL. The company should have seen this cost up front. Before they decided to do this "Asset Transfer." You point fingers at the XJ pilots, who wrote a provision to protect their QOL, but you you give no blame to our former management for this deluded plan to merge 3 airlines into 2. Nor do you recognize that 9e and 9L guys voted for and ratified this contract too, in it's entirety. Instead you blame XJ pilots, and further your insult by saying XJ pilots were the demise of MAIR and XJ. Not true at all. XJ was profitable the day it went into BK, which was solely due to NWA not paying XJ for services rendered. XJ has also brought enough revenue to PNCL Corp. to essentially pay for itself. This never was, or is a failing airline. The plan to merge the 3 airlines is solely to blame for any financial hardships we see now.

I have no problem negotiating an LOA for temporary relief of contract provisions to help the financial impact of the merger, but I have no intentions of endorsing routing these provisions from the contract. They are there for a reason. As you gain seniority, or as some face the reality of possibly being a lifer here, they will want these provisions intact. The idea that they shouldn't be there because you won't be here in 5 years, is very myopic and extremely selfish.

 

[gojo]

Boy, you're pretty pious now that you've moved on. Since you've got absolutely no dog in this fight, I suggest you move on to your greener pastures.

My point was that it's XJ's absolute inflexibility that is intentionally causing a partial system flush - costing the company hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in unnecessary opportunity and training costs. It's not hard to imagine that the pilots caused some of the fiscal hardships of their former company.

A lot of the XJ guys are speaking of bankruptcy as a joke, meanwhile absolving themselves of any responsibility in it. It strikes me as cavalier and oblivious.

Lastly, Gojo, I suppose you would like to have us Pinnacle guys lay down and play nice while you railroad us with your displacements. I'm sorry, but I can't do that. What is happening isn't right. It isn't equitable.

XJ is like a man who fell out of a window and grabbed someone as he went out... making sure that the other guy cushioned his fall.

Take your blinders off and try looking at the whole picture. No one at Xj wanted this and it was not our decision to park the Saabs. XJ was and still is a safe and profitable airline, and up until recently had very good performance. Your anger is misdirected, and it's not doing anyone any good.

 

[bri5150]

My point was that it's XJ's absolute inflexibility that is intentionally causing a partial system flush - costing the company hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in unnecessary opportunity and training costs. It's not hard to imagine that the pilots caused some of the fiscal hardships of their former company.

A lot of the XJ guys are speaking of bankruptcy as a joke, meanwhile absolving themselves of any responsibility in it. It strikes me as cavalier and oblivious.

Our "inflexibility" in the past has gotten us the work rules and pay rates you now enjoy. It also gotten the scope letter we had in our contract so that we didn't all end up at year one pay with this mess. "Inflexibilty" is not a bad thing, most of the time. I do agree though, we should have an LOA to bypass this provision until the Saab guys are all moved.

 

[Flyprdu]

Im curious if you guys are serious about offering relief, or if it's lip service.

The first Pinnacle downgrades start training Oct 3rd. If you're serious, encourage your MEC to approve a temporary relaxing to allow those Captains to stay in their seats.

Afterall, it's your MEC and front office that's running the show these days.

 

[mesaba13]

There is no mesaba anymore and thus no mesaba provsions. The JCBA was agreed to by all parties right?

 

[bri5150]

Im curious if you guys are serious about offering relief, or if it's lip service.

The first Pinnacle downgrades start training Oct 3rd. If you're serious, encourage your MEC to approve a temporary relaxing to allow those Captains to stay in their seats.

Afterall, it's your MEC and front office that's running the show these days.

I did before I even started this thread.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

It is and always was and will be about protecting the most senior, the rest of us are just fodder....