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United, US Airways fly closer to merger (Article - May 11)

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JonnyKnoxville

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United, US Airways fly closer tomerger; Combined carrier is expected to be based in Chicago, but topleaders would come from smaller airline

Chicago Tribune
May 11, 2008

United Airlines is closing in on a merger with US Airways,sources say, after being spurned by Continental Airlines and Delta AirLines.
The combined carrier would be headquartered in Chicago,United's base and home to its largest airport hub, said a personfamiliar with the negotiations.

But United executives aren't expected to run the carrier,which would be the nation's second largest, slightly smaller than theproposed Delta-Northwest Airlines tie-up announced last month. Topduties are likely to be assumed by US Airways Chief Executive DougParker and its president, Scott Kirby, said people close to thePhoenix-based carrier.

Others caution that the management team's makeup and ahost of other issues have yet to be sorted out and that an announcementisn't imminent.

The carriers have been down this path before. United andUS Airways explored a merger in 1995 and went so far as announcing adeal in 2000, only to shelve it 14 months later amid a slowing economyand opposition from labor and regulatory officials.

As in 2000, United and US Airways are expected to shedassets in the Washington, D.C., market, where overlapping operationsare likeliest to raise antitrust concerns. United is the dominantcarrier at Washington Dulles International Airport; US Airways is thelargest at capacity-constrained Reagan National Airport.

AirTran, JetBlue and Virgin America officials all say theywould be in the market for landing rights and gates that the carrierswould divest at Reagan National and other East Coast strongholds if amerger were consummated.

"There are some places we're keeping a very close eye on,"said David Cush, president and CEO of San Francisco-based VirginAmerica, an upstart airline aimed at business travelers that plans torapidly expand its cross-country routes. "If a deal is proposed, we'llget our wish list together."

United and other carriers are contemplatingindustry-changing consolidation amid a credit crisis, lower consumerspending and record-high fuel prices. In addition to theDelta-Northwest merger, American Airlines is negotiating an alliancewith Continental that would enable the carriers to sell tickets on eachother's flights.

All airlines are struggling to cope with the sharpindustry downturn. But the pressure is especially keen for United CEOGlenn Tilton, whose airline's performance badly trailed its peersduring the first quarter and who hasn't been able to deliver a deal toshareholders, despite being the industry's most vocal proponent ofconsolidation.

What's more, United is projected to suffer the deepest2008 losses in the industry, an estimated $10.71 per share, at thecurrent oil prices, according to a research report published Friday byanalyst Kevin Crissey of UBS Investment Research.

The airline with the second-largest projected loss? USAirways, which Crissey estimates will lose $10.16 per share. Parkeralso has advocated consolidation and last year failed in an attemptedhostile buyout of Delta.

Combining with US Airways would provide United with a $5.3billion cash cushion, potential cost-saving synergies of at least $1.5billion and the means for even more drastic cuts if needed, likeparking the two carriers' 111-plane fleet of aging Boeing 737-300 jets,sources said.

Sources expect any merger to include capital fromstrategic investors, which could include global alliance partners or aMiddle East-based sovereign fund. While United planned to borrow tofund its $12 billion buyout of US Airways in 2000, this time executiveswant a deal that would strengthen its balance sheet.

But some question whether those gains would offset a fuelbill that would rise as much as $6 billion in 2008 for the combinedcarriers, or demands by unions at United and US Airways to raise theirwages, the lowest among major airlines, up to the industry average.

Jake Brace, United Airlines' executive vice president andchief financial officer, said mergers will work only if they areaccompanied by a major revamping of airline operations.

"Consolidation by itself is not the solution. The industrywill need to do many things to create business plans that work in thisenvironment," said Brace, who declined to comment on any talk of amerger. US Airways also would not comment.

Even so, many longtime aviation observers are skepticalthat the megacarriers formed by combining Delta with Northwest andUnited with US Airways would be stronger and more efficient than thecarriers operating as stand-alone companies.

"There are [few] easy answers for an airline in United'ssituation, but a merger just isn't one of them," said Hubert Horan, aPhoenix-based aviation consultant.

Horan thinks that a United-US Airways linkup may find itmore difficult to navigate the industry's troublesome landscape. Hethinks the costs of combining computers, reservation systems and fleetscould wipe out much of the potential cost savings. There's also thepossibility of potential disruptions that could be triggered by tryingto integrate United's pilots with their balkanized counterparts at USAirways.

"The last thing you need, especially heading into arecession and with fuel volatility, is to spend $1 billion of cashreserves that are already dwindling … on what would be the mosthellaciously complex merger in aviation history," Horan said. "It'slike dropping a gasoline-soaked bomb on six union groups."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun-united-tilton-mergermay11,0,1669926.story
 
Rumor has it that the CAL/UAL deal fell apart due to lack of investment capital. I see LCC/UAL as less likely due to that very reason.
I think that we're done with mergers for this cycle. Of course, I didn't think that NWA/DAL was going to happen; I was very surprised that they found additional capital to make it happen.
 
The Unions wouldn't have to worry about any mergers if they'd just go date of hire from this point forward.

Orrrrr... they can just opt for more US/HP-style fun.

Doesn't matter to me... just an observation from the outside that the binding arbitration method doesn't work so well. At least from what I see.
 
Easy to say. However, DoH will never happen as long as pilots are the greedy bastiges we are. We all assume we're ENTITLED to OUR widebody seats/bases etc. like its an edict from heaven.
 
Easy to say. However, DoH will never happen as long as pilots are the greedy bastiges we are. We all assume we're ENTITLED to OUR widebody seats/bases etc. like its an edict from heaven.

Oh, exactly. Like I said, no worries for me. It appears that the traditional method of "me 1st, you never" is working just fine. :laugh:

IMHO, DOH is the only objectively measurable method to determine seniority... because that's what seniority really is...

DOH with fences is the only way... or y'all can go the route of US/HP. TALL FENCES: They make great neighbors.
 
Oh, exactly. Like I said, no worries for me. It appears that the traditional method of "me 1st, you never" is working just fine. :laugh:

IMHO, DOH is the only objectively measurable method to determine seniority... because that's what seniority really is...

DOH with fences is the only way... or y'all can go the route of US/HP. TALL FENCES: They make great neighbors.

DOH is only a method to determine seniority within your company. When you start mixing apples and oranges, (ie USAir and AWA), it's a lost cause and not reasonable*.



*Unless your a guy whose been with a company for a really long time,
even if that company is days from liquidation and you're stuck as a 20 year FO, because it allows you to believe that you can come back from furlough and displace somebody else out of their Captain's Seat. Then DOH is super reasonable!
 
DOH is only a method to determine seniority within your company. When you start mixing apples and oranges, (ie USAir and AWA), it's a lost cause and not reasonable*.



*Unless your a guy whose been with a company for a really long time,
even if that company is days from liquidation and you're stuck as a 20 year FO, because it allows you to believe that you can come back from furlough and displace somebody else out of their Captain's Seat. Then DOH is super reasonable!

Right. USAPA guys are genius. They've figured out something that no other criminal lawyer has ever thought of. If you're client gets convicted of murder, all you have to do is have his name legally changed. That way you could argue that his conviction should be overturned because, it wasn't him.

I'm sure a judge will go for that argument. I wonder how long it will take to get a decision in the DFR suit? 20 minutes?

Of course by then, Seham will have pocketed millions and millions of dollars from a group of hard-up, self entitled, cry baby suckers.
 
Parking 111 Boeing 737-300's? I don't know how some majors staff there planes, but 10 crewmembers per plane. Hmmmmm, easy math there.

111*10= 1,110 furloughs!
 
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DOH is only a method to determine seniority within your company. When you start mixing apples and oranges, (ie USAir and AWA), it's a lost cause and not reasonable*.





Hmmm. DOH was our chosen method to integrate two pilot groups over here. The "merger" never even made the news.

I "moved" down 350 numbers in the integration but I considered it career insurance towards long term career enjoyment. ONE BIG HAPPY PILOT GROUP.

Just sitting here with my popcorn watching the show though... It just doesn't seem (to me) that the whole ALPA method of mergers works... "career expectations" and all.

To try and prove financial stability between 121 carriers in 2008 is just funny.
 
The Unions wouldn't have to worry about any mergers if they'd just go date of hire from this point forward.

Orrrrr... they can just opt for more US/HP-style fun.

Doesn't matter to me... just an observation from the outside that the binding arbitration method doesn't work so well. At least from what I see.

Well you can kiss that idea good-bye. The government passed legislation to keep one group from getting tacked to the bottom of another(ie TWA-AA). That's exactly what DOH would have done for the HP-AAA merger. Sorry, DOH is DOA.
 
Well you can kiss that idea good-bye. The government passed legislation to keep one group from getting tacked to the bottom of another(ie TWA-AA). That's exactly what DOH would have done for the HP-AAA merger. Sorry, DOH is DOA.

Like I said, just enjoying the view. I'm gonna need more popcorn.

Until the needs of the individual become less important than the needs of the entire industry, 121 if fragged.

DOH has been a cornerstone of the Unionized world since Day 1. Somehow many have lost sight of that.

Looks like the alternative to DOH is working quite well... :rolleyes:
 
Like I said, just enjoying the view. I'm gonna need more popcorn.

Until the needs of the individual become less important than the needs of the entire industry, 121 if fragged.

DOH has been a cornerstone of the Unionized world since Day 1. Somehow many have lost sight of that.

Looks like the alternative to DOH is working quite well... :rolleyes:

So you think DOH is fair when it puts nearly one whole pilot group at the bottom of the list simply because the company hasn't existed as long?
 
Like I said, just enjoying the view. I'm gonna need more popcorn.

Until the needs of the individual become less important than the needs of the entire industry, 121 if fragged.

DOH has been a cornerstone of the Unionized world since Day 1. Somehow many have lost sight of that.

Looks like the alternative to DOH is working quite well... :rolleyes:


HEY ITS FLYBLOW22 from the AOL days!

I remember you from the last Merger go around.....Did you get your 747 Study guide? DREAM ON DUDE!
 
So you think DOH is fair when it puts nearly one whole pilot group at the bottom of the list simply because the company hasn't existed as long?

This conversation would be over months ago, so yes.

But seriously, it doesn't matter what I think. You guys are all over it.

What do you think is fair (but practical) and good for the profession... if there will even be one going forward?

1st in, 1st out works for reserve, why not seniority?

AAA guys are almost all dead anyway... they were OLD 10 years ago. Seemed like HP pilots would have inherited the airline in about 10 more years had DOH been implemented.

Now... who knows...

Guess we'll find out during the next merger.
 
HEY ITS FLYBLOW22 from the AOL days!

I remember you from the last Merger go around.....Did you get your 747 Study guide? DREAM ON DUDE!

Nah. Traded it on for a steady paycheck.

How are ya? How is the whale? :beer:

I miss the AOL boards... pilots really said what was on their minds.

What do you think about seniority integration Sonny? What will your pilot group opt for? DOH or "Career Expectations".

Who will get the Braniff routes this time?
 
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Yeah, seniority is everything.

The usair guys are old and should get first crack at everything because they were hired awhile ago.

Funny, I've been at this awhile too. Then the management at my airline decided to buy a boat anchor full of delusional, entitlement types.

What DOH do you want to use? First airline, first merger, first ALPA airline? My guess is you want to use whatever benefits you, while telling everyone else it "benefits" the profession.

You fit right in with the usapa idiots.
 
Yeah, seniority is everything.

The usair guys are old and should get first crack at everything because they were hired awhile ago.

Funny, I've been at this awhile too. Then the management at my airline decided to buy a boat anchor full of delusional, entitlement types.

What DOH do you want to use? First airline, first merger, first ALPA airline? My guess is you want to use whatever benefits you, while telling everyone else it "benefits" the profession.

You fit right in with the usapa idiots.

I stand to benefit none from anything AAA/HP. I simply would like to get to work now and again as a full paying pax.

If pilots would, however, do some studying of... well, ALL other Unionized professions they would see that SENIORITY is the king daddy basic cornerstone of Trade Unionized Labor. It determines everything and it is determined by DOH.

Why are pilots (think) so different?

Think about it. All of these endless threads about seniority would be moot. Years of waiting for a seniority solution would have been compressed into months at worst.

There are more mergers coming. Why not make it easy? The issues affecting pilots these days affect #1-?? anyway. Entire companies are on the line now.
 
Right, nice try.

I'm guessing you think it would help you.

Where were the doh people when Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, etc, went under? You going to give the Aloha or ATA guys DOH at NJA?

Well...............
 
Right, nice try.

I'm guessing you think it would help you.

Where were the doh people when Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, etc, went under? You going to give the Aloha or ATA guys DOH at NJA?

Well...............


Well...........those airlines that you mentioned went out of business; if alpa had pushed long ago (and mind you would have to be done long ago), for a 'national seniority list' then pilots at those carriers probably would have gotten some type of credit (with some reasonable restrictions/conditions, to protect other pilots) for their seniority based on their original DOH in the industry.

However, a merger is a different story; and I think what the previous poster, as well as other on this thread are talking about is DOH, with 'conditions and restrictions' (fences), to protect everyone's original progression. Basically, what alpa merger policy was before 1991, when they created this current situation with US/AWA and DL/NWA; long drawn out, infighting, battle to the death.

And, the new law that was passed last year will probably turn back the clock for mergers 'outside' of alpa merger policy. The bill states that mergers where both carriers are not represented by alpa, will be governed by A-M LPP. And, while A-M does not make any specific reference to DOH, and merely states 'fair and reasonable' integration and provides for mediation and arbitration; the fact that the law 'specifically references A-M LPP' a good case could be made that any arbitrator should reference prior cases that were decided specifically under A-M as precedent. If a arbitrator follows that logic, then he will most likely decide on "DOH, with conditions and restrictions (appropriate fences)" as that is how most mergers were conducted under A-M.

PanAm/National, Delta/Western, NWA/Republic, TWA/Ozark, US Air/PSA, US Air/Piedmont, and so on and so on....... All pretty much "DOH, with conditions and restrictions/Fences"

It will be interesting to see how things will play out once the new law is put to the test, but stated above is just one very likely way that it could play out.

As a previous poster also stated, pilots seem to be the 'only' labor group in this country that does NOT recognize DOH as a measure of seniority for the purposes of integration of lists. Also, pilots (we) seem to be the only group that has these Long, drawn out debates/battles.

For what its worth.

PD
 
"PanAm/National, Delta/Western, NWA/Republic, TWA/Ozark, US Air/PSA, US Air/Piedmont, and so on and so on....... All pretty much "DOH, with conditions and restrictions/Fences"

Have you ever asked an Ozark guy how he felt about the TWA/OZ merge? There is still a HUGE amount of bitterness and resentment over that integration, 23 years later. They did NOT get A-M provisions. The TWA pilots threatened to pull out of ALPA if they had to abide by A-M LPP's (sound familiar?). With the help of Carl Icahn, they were able to cram DOH down the throats of the OZ guys. It was essentially a staple job, very similar to the effect that DOH would have today on the America West folks. It's also one of the reasons ALPA changed its merger policy.
 
I stand to benefit none from anything AAA/HP. I simply would like to get to work now and again as a full paying pax.

If pilots would, however, do some studying of... well, ALL other Unionized professions they would see that SENIORITY is the king daddy basic cornerstone of Trade Unionized Labor. It determines everything and it is determined by DOH.

Why are pilots (think) so different?

Think about it. All of these endless threads about seniority would be moot. Years of waiting for a seniority solution would have been compressed into months at worst.

There are more mergers coming. Why not make it easy? The issues affecting pilots these days affect #1-?? anyway. Entire companies are on the line now.

"Seniority" as you choose to define it is meaningless. DOH , as any kind of standard, does not exist in THIS industry for very good reasons. For example, If I have 20 years "seniority" but have been on furlough for 13 of those SAME years...am I owed something?

Am I owed something from a totally unrelated pilot with 8 years "seniority" that was never furloughed but has a greater length of service?

DOH is DOA because it's meaningless in the airline industry. That's why DOH was removed from ALPA merger policy 17 years ago.
 

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