United, US Airways fly closer to merger (Article - May 11)

[Deadalus]

The Unions wouldn't have to worry about any mergers if they'd just go date of hire from this point forward.

Orrrrr... they can just opt for more US/HP-style fun.

Doesn't matter to me... just an observation from the outside that the binding arbitration method doesn't work so well. At least from what I see.

Well you can kiss that idea good-bye. The government passed legislation to keep one group from getting tacked to the bottom of another(ie TWA-AA). That's exactly what DOH would have done for the HP-AAA merger. Sorry, DOH is DOA.

 

[Colonel Savage]

I have to admit, with all the merger talk going on I got a good laugh out of this one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24585481/

Waaay more than I wanted to know.
Thanks anyway, I think....

 

[FLYLOW22]

Well you can kiss that idea good-bye. The government passed legislation to keep one group from getting tacked to the bottom of another(ie TWA-AA). That's exactly what DOH would have done for the HP-AAA merger. Sorry, DOH is DOA.

Like I said, just enjoying the view. I'm gonna need more popcorn.

Until the needs of the individual become less important than the needs of the entire industry, 121 if fragged.

DOH has been a cornerstone of the Unionized world since Day 1. Somehow many have lost sight of that.

Looks like the alternative to DOH is working quite well...

 

[Caspian27]

Like I said, just enjoying the view. I'm gonna need more popcorn.

Until the needs of the individual become less important than the needs of the entire industry, 121 if fragged.

DOH has been a cornerstone of the Unionized world since Day 1. Somehow many have lost sight of that.

Looks like the alternative to DOH is working quite well...

So you think DOH is fair when it puts nearly one whole pilot group at the bottom of the list simply because the company hasn't existed as long?

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Like I said, just enjoying the view. I'm gonna need more popcorn.

Until the needs of the individual become less important than the needs of the entire industry, 121 if fragged.

DOH has been a cornerstone of the Unionized world since Day 1. Somehow many have lost sight of that.

Looks like the alternative to DOH is working quite well...

HEY ITS FLYBLOW22 from the AOL days!

I remember you from the last Merger go around.....Did you get your 747 Study guide? DREAM ON DUDE!

 

[FLYLOW22]

So you think DOH is fair when it puts nearly one whole pilot group at the bottom of the list simply because the company hasn't existed as long?

This conversation would be over months ago, so yes.

But seriously, it doesn't matter what I think. You guys are all over it.

What do you think is fair (but practical) and good for the profession... if there will even be one going forward?

1st in, 1st out works for reserve, why not seniority?

AAA guys are almost all dead anyway... they were OLD 10 years ago. Seemed like HP pilots would have inherited the airline in about 10 more years had DOH been implemented.

Now... who knows...

Guess we'll find out during the next merger.

 

[FLYLOW22]

HEY ITS FLYBLOW22 from the AOL days!

I remember you from the last Merger go around.....Did you get your 747 Study guide? DREAM ON DUDE!

Nah. Traded it on for a steady paycheck.

How are ya? How is the whale? :beer:

I miss the AOL boards... pilots really said what was on their minds.

What do you think about seniority integration Sonny? What will your pilot group opt for? DOH or "Career Expectations".

Who will get the Braniff routes this time?

 

[eaglesview]

If this potentially career ending merger goes you can count on this UAL vote for DOH.

 

[steveg]

Yeah, seniority is everything.

The usair guys are old and should get first crack at everything because they were hired awhile ago.

Funny, I've been at this awhile too. Then the management at my airline decided to buy a boat anchor full of delusional, entitlement types.

What DOH do you want to use? First airline, first merger, first ALPA airline? My guess is you want to use whatever benefits you, while telling everyone else it "benefits" the profession.

You fit right in with the usapa idiots.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Yeah, seniority is everything.

The usair guys are old and should get first crack at everything because they were hired awhile ago.

Funny, I've been at this awhile too. Then the management at my airline decided to buy a boat anchor full of delusional, entitlement types.

What DOH do you want to use? First airline, first merger, first ALPA airline? My guess is you want to use whatever benefits you, while telling everyone else it "benefits" the profession.

You fit right in with the usapa idiots.

I stand to benefit none from anything AAA/HP. I simply would like to get to work now and again as a full paying pax.

If pilots would, however, do some studying of... well, ALL other Unionized professions they would see that SENIORITY is the king daddy basic cornerstone of Trade Unionized Labor. It determines everything and it is determined by DOH.

Why are pilots (think) so different?

Think about it. All of these endless threads about seniority would be moot. Years of waiting for a seniority solution would have been compressed into months at worst.

There are more mergers coming. Why not make it easy? The issues affecting pilots these days affect #1-?? anyway. Entire companies are on the line now.

 

[steveg]

Right, nice try.

I'm guessing you think it would help you.

Where were the doh people when Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, etc, went under? You going to give the Aloha or ATA guys DOH at NJA?

Well...............

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Right, nice try.

I'm guessing you think it would help you.

Where were the doh people when Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, etc, went under? You going to give the Aloha or ATA guys DOH at NJA?

Well...............

Well...........those airlines that you mentioned went out of business; if alpa had pushed long ago (and mind you would have to be done long ago), for a 'national seniority list' then pilots at those carriers probably would have gotten some type of credit (with some reasonable restrictions/conditions, to protect other pilots) for their seniority based on their original DOH in the industry.

However, a merger is a different story; and I think what the previous poster, as well as other on this thread are talking about is DOH, with 'conditions and restrictions' (fences), to protect everyone's original progression. Basically, what alpa merger policy was before 1991, when they created this current situation with US/AWA and DL/NWA; long drawn out, infighting, battle to the death.

And, the new law that was passed last year will probably turn back the clock for mergers 'outside' of alpa merger policy. The bill states that mergers where both carriers are not represented by alpa, will be governed by A-M LPP. And, while A-M does not make any specific reference to DOH, and merely states 'fair and reasonable' integration and provides for mediation and arbitration; the fact that the law 'specifically references A-M LPP' a good case could be made that any arbitrator should reference prior cases that were decided specifically under A-M as precedent. If a arbitrator follows that logic, then he will most likely decide on "DOH, with conditions and restrictions (appropriate fences)" as that is how most mergers were conducted under A-M.

PanAm/National, Delta/Western, NWA/Republic, TWA/Ozark, US Air/PSA, US Air/Piedmont, and so on and so on....... All pretty much "DOH, with conditions and restrictions/Fences"

It will be interesting to see how things will play out once the new law is put to the test, but stated above is just one very likely way that it could play out.

As a previous poster also stated, pilots seem to be the 'only' labor group in this country that does NOT recognize DOH as a measure of seniority for the purposes of integration of lists. Also, pilots (we) seem to be the only group that has these Long, drawn out debates/battles.

For what its worth.

PD

 

[Thebadcat1313]

"PanAm/National, Delta/Western, NWA/Republic, TWA/Ozark, US Air/PSA, US Air/Piedmont, and so on and so on....... All pretty much "DOH, with conditions and restrictions/Fences"

Have you ever asked an Ozark guy how he felt about the TWA/OZ merge? There is still a HUGE amount of bitterness and resentment over that integration, 23 years later. They did NOT get A-M provisions. The TWA pilots threatened to pull out of ALPA if they had to abide by A-M LPP's (sound familiar?). With the help of Carl Icahn, they were able to cram DOH down the throats of the OZ guys. It was essentially a staple job, very similar to the effect that DOH would have today on the America West folks. It's also one of the reasons ALPA changed its merger policy.

 

[Ocity]

I stand to benefit none from anything AAA/HP. I simply would like to get to work now and again as a full paying pax.

If pilots would, however, do some studying of... well, ALL other Unionized professions they would see that SENIORITY is the king daddy basic cornerstone of Trade Unionized Labor. It determines everything and it is determined by DOH.

Why are pilots (think) so different?

Think about it. All of these endless threads about seniority would be moot. Years of waiting for a seniority solution would have been compressed into months at worst.

There are more mergers coming. Why not make it easy? The issues affecting pilots these days affect #1-?? anyway. Entire companies are on the line now.

"Seniority" as you choose to define it is meaningless. DOH , as any kind of standard, does not exist in THIS industry for very good reasons. For example, If I have 20 years "seniority" but have been on furlough for 13 of those SAME years...am I owed something?

Am I owed something from a totally unrelated pilot with 8 years "seniority" that was never furloughed but has a greater length of service?

DOH is DOA because it's meaningless in the airline industry. That's why DOH was removed from ALPA merger policy 17 years ago.

 

[eaglesview]

Funny how the AFA has doesn't have all these problems....could it have something to do with DOH. HMMM