United, US Airways fly closer to merger (Article - May 11)

[JonnyKnoxville]

"PanAm/National, Delta/Western, NWA/Republic, TWA/Ozark, US Air/PSA, US Air/Piedmont, and so on and so on....... All pretty much "DOH, with conditions and restrictions/Fences"

Have you ever asked an Ozark guy how he felt about the TWA/OZ merge? There is still a HUGE amount of bitterness and resentment over that integration, 23 years later. They did NOT get A-M provisions. The TWA pilots threatened to pull out of ALPA if they had to abide by A-M LPP's (sound familiar?). With the help of Carl Icahn, they were able to cram DOH down the throats of the OZ guys. It was essentially a staple job, very similar to the effect that DOH would have today on the America West folks. It's also one of the reasons ALPA changed its merger policy.

Somebody actually paid attention during history class. US Airways and America West is TWA and Ozark all over again.

 

[eaglesview]

Yeah, seniority is everything.


What DOH do you want to use? First airline, first merger, first ALPA airline? My guess is you want to use whatever benefits you, while telling everyone else it "benefits" the profession.

You fit right in with the usapa idiots.

Yeah I got lots to gain merging with two carriers, One of which has 9 A330 and a hand full of 767's and another that has a base in the desert and 0 widebodies. Maybe I'm missing something clue me in.

 

[get2flyin]

Yeah I got lots to gain merging with two carriers, One of which has 9 A330 and a hand full of 767's and another that has a base in the desert and 0 widebodies. Maybe I'm missing something clue me in.

Edited...I misread this post

1. Nevermind
2. There are TWO bases in the desert.

 

[reepicheep]

Base in the desert....you mean Mojave, where half of usair's fleet is still parked?

 

[vetrider]

I tell ya what, a leg home from Minnieapolis in the winter and driving home in your t shirt with your arm hanging out the window looking forward to the rest of your day is awful sweet.

 

[Green]

Yeah I got lots to gain merging with two carriers, One of which has 9 A330 and a hand full of 767's and another that has a base in the desert and 0 widebodies. Maybe I'm missing something clue me in.

well phoenix and vegas are some of the fastest growing cities in the country. Even considering the current housing crisis when you factor in the massive retirements in the general population they should remain growth cities for a long time to come. lots of people will be flying to see mom and dad over the years...unfortunately us airways in their infinite wisdom seems ready to cede Vegas to Southwest. hopefully it won't be a repeat of PSA giving up the west coast.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Right, nice try.

I'm guessing you think it would help you.

Where were the doh people when Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, etc, went under? You going to give the Aloha or ATA guys DOH at NJA?

Well...............

I stand to gain nothing in this conversation or to my career.

NetJets will never be compared to a legacy carrier. Period. We use Part 121 carriers to get to and from jets.

Aloha? ATA? We aren't merging with either companies. Completely incompatible business models that both happen to fly jets. I don't think your question is valid. Pilots from ATA and Aloha can and should apply here. Some may get hired and they will be given a Date Of Hire.

Now, many of you may not even know that we currently do have a merger integration occurring at NetJets right now (NJA/NJI). The difference between our merger and the other ones that have made horrible news in recent years is that we are taking care of our own business in house. No mediation. No arbitration. No front page news articles. No recalls.

DOH ruled. Period. End of story. Easy, simple, predictable.

The seniority issue of DOH never even came up as a negative for NJA/NJI. DOH was the only option to choose to insure that the needs and futures of the GROUP moved forward. Sure, a few individuals might have felt they were shorted but the combined group will be fine.

But maybe you guys have it all figured out with these "career expectation" and "surviving carrier" models.

I sure don't see it but whatever.

 

[FLYLOW22]

"Seniority" as you choose to define it is meaningless. DOH , as any kind of standard, does not exist in THIS industry for very good reasons. For example, If I have 20 years "seniority" but have been on furlough for 13 of those SAME years...am I owed something?

Am I owed something from a totally unrelated pilot with 8 years "seniority" that was never furloughed but has a greater length of service?

DOH is DOA because it's meaningless in the airline industry. That's why DOH was removed from ALPA merger policy 17 years ago.

If 2 companies merge? Yes, IMO. DOH.

Each pilot group brought something to the table; some good, some bad... like a family. The family can either move forward with family business or sit around fighting and debating.

Pilots at HP/AAA have been fighting so long over seniority that they must be getting pretty good at it, deserving the title of MasterDebaters.

How much time and money has been literally wasted on the most recent merger? Home much will be wasted in the future?

What was really gained?

P.S. Umm. UAL ALPA changed the merger provision language at the ALPA National so as to protect their collective asses in 2000. UAL/US #1.

 

[Guppiedriver]

I stand to gain nothing in this conversation or to my career.

NetJets will never be compared to a legacy carrier. Period. We use Part 121 carriers to get to and from jets.

Aloha? ATA? We aren't merging with either companies. Completely incompatible business models that both happen to fly jets. I don't think your question is valid. Pilots from ATA and Aloha can and should apply here. Some may get hired and they will be given a Date Of Hire.

Now, many of you may not even know that we currently do have a merger integration occurring at NetJets right now (NJA/NJI). The difference between our merger and the other ones that have made horrible news in recent years is that we are taking care of our own business in house. No mediation. No arbitration. No front page news articles. No recalls.

DOH ruled. Period. End of story. Easy, simple, predictable.

The seniority issue of DOH never even came up as a negative for NJA/NJI. DOH was the only option to choose to insure that the needs and futures of the GROUP moved forward. Sure, a few individuals might have felt they were shorted but the combined group will be fine.

But maybe you guys have it all figured out with these "career expectation" and "surviving carrier" models.

I sure don't see it but whatever.

Comparing the merger of pilots at NJA/NJI with AAA/AWA is a huge stretch. NJI is about one eighth of NJA's size. Even if NJI was a much older company(it's not), like AAA is to AWA, you could give them all DOH and nobody would at NJA would even notice. Fact is, NJI is younger and much smaller, so no matter what system you use to merge the two, not a single pilot at NJA (you) will even notice.

Dude, you still spend more time on the majors board than most major pilots.....still got a bit of big jet envy don't ya! Oh I know...Mcdonald's, TSA shakedowns, same airport monotony...blah, blah, blah.....I'M NOT BUYING IT!

 

[TWA Dude]

Funny how the AFA has doesn't have all these problems....could it have something to do with DOH. HMMM

Glad you brought this up. As you well know, the AFA policy is straight DOH. This effectively staples the AWA FA group. The fact that you HAVEN'T heard any problems is because our FAs have accepted their union's policy. The AWA pilots have accepted ALPA's merger policy as well. Need I remind you of who hasn't? These problems you refer to have a source and the policy isn't it -- it's a certain group of pilots with an overblown sense of entitlement.

DOH -- simple doesn't make it right.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Comparing the merger of pilots at NJA/NJI with AAA/AWA is a huge stretch. NJI is about one eighth of NJA's size. Even if NJI was a much older company(it's not), like AAA is to AWA, you could give them all DOH and nobody would at NJA would even notice. Fact is, NJI is younger and much smaller, so no matter what system you use to merge the two, not a single pilot at NJA (you) will even notice.

Dude, you still spend more time on the majors board than most major pilots.....still got a bit of big jet envy don't ya! Oh I know...Mcdonald's, TSA shakedowns, same airport monotony...blah, blah, blah.....I'M NOT BUYING IT!

Don't know why. 370 pilots at NJI. 2,800 pilots at NJA. A merger is a merger. I think the stapler could have been proposed... but why go that route?

Personally, I moved about 300 numbers more junior because of the merger. Oh well. I call it a career win because it's a done deal and we can all move on taking care of our Owners and growing.

Big jet envy? Heck no. Steady paychecks do it for me. But let's not make this about me.

Inquiring minds want to know... why wouldn't DOH have worked at HP/AAA? In 10 years, most of the AAA pilots would have been gone and HP would have inherited the airline.

Rhetorical question at this point but going forward, more pilot groups will be faced with the same questions.

I am mesmerized my the choice I see most 121 pilots making; ME above all.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Glad you brought this up. As you well know, the AFA policy is straight DOH. This effectively staples the AWA FA group. The fact that you HAVEN'T heard any problems is because our FAs have accepted their union's policy. The AWA pilots have accepted ALPA's merger policy as well. Need I remind you of who hasn't? These problems you refer to have a source and the policy isn't it -- it's a certain group of pilots with an overblown sense of entitlement.

DOH -- simple doesn't make it right.

How would you have done in the TWA/AA merger with DOH?

 

[Thebadcat1313]

How would you have done in the TWA/AA merger with DOH?

He would have been about 2500 numbers higher on the list and would have completely avoided furlough. Only problem is, even though TWA brought a lot of good things to the table, they did'nt bring enough to justify another 2500 numbers for TWA dude. That would have put him higher on the list, percentage-wise than where he was at TWA. That's why the "Tannen proposal" was presented to the APA. It was an integration methodology that was done very much like Nicolau's award for AWA/AAA. Of course, the APA laughed at it because the TWA guys had no leverage.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Funny how the AFA has doesn't have all these problems....could it have something to do with DOH. HMMM

No. its because they are paid the same per flight hour whether they are a Flight Attendant working a trip flying domestic or a widebody trip international. They aren't paid more per flt hr for flying on different aircraft within their airlines fleet as pilots are . They are only paid more for their lengh of time with their company. This is the only reason why DOH works for flight attendants No pay differential for different aircraft types flown.

PHXFLYR

 

[Guppiedriver]

Don't know why. 370 pilots at NJI. 2,800 pilots at NJA. A merger is a merger. I think the stapler could have been proposed... but why go that route?

So, you are opposed to stapling 370 NJI guys to your list, but you're OK with AAA stapling about 1300 AWA guys to their list?

Inquiring minds want to know... why wouldn't DOH have worked at HP/AAA? In 10 years, most of the AAA pilots would have been gone and HP would have inherited the airline.

For starters....It's not ALPA's merger policy. Also, DOH puts too many AWA pilots in harms way if US has to furlough. If a furlough were to occur, the new hires would be the first to go and rightly so, but there aren't many of them. Next to go would be a mix of our new hires that were hired from 2004 to 2005 and AAA 1999 hires. The next batch to get furloughed would be mostly the AWA pilots that were hired after 1990. That would account for all but about the top 1/3 of the AWA pilots. After that, it would be a mix of AWA and AAA guys, but at a pace that favors AAA.

Answer me this:

Our bottom guy at the time of the merger had a few months on the property. Why should he be put in a more precarious position than the guy on the bottom of AAA's list? Remember, before you answer, the old US Airways does not exist. The merger created a new company that goes by LCC on the NYSE.

I am mesmerized my the choice I see most 121 pilots making; ME above all.

After seeing the actions of the US Airways east pilots in the last few months, I am too.

 

[TWA Dude]

How would you have done in the TWA/AA merger with DOH?

As Thebadcat1313 wrote, a DOH with AA would've done me very nicely. I was a '99 hire at TWA with about 400 hired below me. AA hired around 2400 during that period. I would've been happy simply maintaining my status, ie, relative seniority. I've no doubt an arbitrator would've given us something better than what the APA imposed.

 

[FLYLOW22]

So, you are opposed to stapling 370 NJI guys to your list, but you're OK with AAA stapling about 1300 AWA guys to their list?

I never wrote that I supported stapling. DOH was the topic. I, personally, would have a hard time looking a NJI guy in the eye if they had been stapled. I'm very happy that the proposal was never on the table.


For starters....It's not ALPA's merger policy. Also, DOH puts too many AWA pilots in harms way if US has to furlough. If a furlough were to occur, the new hires would be the first to go and rightly so, but there aren't many of them. Next to go would be a mix of our new hires that were hired from 2004 to 2005 and AAA 1999 hires. The next batch to get furloughed would be mostly the AWA pilots that were hired after 1990. That would account for all but about the top 1/3 of the AWA pilots. After that, it would be a mix of AWA and AAA guys, but at a pace that favors AAA.

So, what you are saying above is that those with the most longevity with the combined company would still be employed.

Answer me this:

Our bottom guy at the time of the merger had a few months on the property. Why should he be put in a more precarious position than the guy on the bottom of AAA's list? Remember, before you answer, the old US Airways does not exist. The merger created a new company that goes by LCC on the NYSE.

Seniority, simply.

It just seems like such a tremendous waste or time, money, resources and earnings to debate this issue. But whatever...


After seeing the actions of the US Airways east pilots in the last few months, I am too.

I dunno man... I just dunno.

 

[Caspian27]

I stand to gain nothing in this conversation or to my career.

You sure comment a lot about something that you yourself say doesn't matter to you, or in no way are involved with.

 

[eaglesview]

No. its because they are paid the same per flight hour whether they are a Flight Attendant working a trip flying domestic or a widebody trip international. They aren't paid more per flt hr for flying on different aircraft within their airlines fleet as pilots are . They are only paid more for their lengh of time with their company. This is the only reason why DOH works for flight attendants No pay differential for different aircraft types flown.

PHXFLYR

Maybe no pay difference in the desert but there is a pay difference between domestic and international. Other considerations Summer vacation vs February vacation..weekends off vs weekends on...reserve vs holding a line...Florida layovers on beach in January vs MSP,DTW ALB ect. DOH

 

[steveg]

So, let me get this straight, you want to base career and union decisions off of what flight attendants do?

Are you lumping professional pilots in the same boat as flight attendants?

And yes, I have a pretty high regard for what FA's do. But it is not the same job or career.

 

[FLYLOW22]

You sure comment a lot about something that you yourself say doesn't matter to you, or in no way are involved with.

Ok....

 

[TWA Dude]

I never wrote that I supported stapling. DOH was the topic.

I don't think you understood Guppiedriver's point. A DOH integration with the AAA group is a staple of 3/4 of the AWA group. If one is interested in fairness rather than expediency in an integration one must pay attention to the effects. Nicolau did.

 

[tomgoodman]

Marketwatch excerpt

Maybe this is "old news":

UAL is expected to discuss strategic options with its board of directors on Thursday, including the progress of its merger talks with rival U.S. Airways, the Financial Times said, citing people familiar with the matter.
To help move talks forward, UAL's chief executive Glen Tilton has reportedly offered to groom U.S. Airways' Doug Parker to succeed him if the merger takes place, the newspaper said.

 

[Guppiedriver]

I never wrote that I supported stapling. DOH was the topic. I, personally, would have a hard time looking a NJI guy in the eye if they had been stapled. I'm very happy that the proposal was never on the table.

The east's DOH argument was a staple for most of the AWA pilots.

So, what you are saying above is that those with the most longevity with the combined company would still be employed.

Minus the new hires and recalls, all pilots at the combined company have no more than 3 years longevity. We will be slotted by what we brought to the merger.

Seniority, simply.

You're confusing seniority with longevity. He's at the bottom of his list, so he has no seniority.

I dunno man... I just dunno.

On this, we can agree.

 

[Superpilot92]

http://consumerist.com/5009137/unit...th-us-airways-keeping-continental-on-the-side

The picture used in the article is just plain sad.


However on a more positive note it looks like you will finally get rid of Tilton.

NEW YORK, May 15 (Reuters) - United Airlines' chief executive Glenn Tilton has offered to make US Airways CEO Doug Parker a top candidate to succeed him if the airlines agree to merge, the Financial Times said on Thursday, citing people familiar with the matter.
Parker does not have any firm contracts on succession but Tilton offered him a senior operating role and to put him on the potential chief executive candidates list if he meets certain performance goals, the report said.
The report added that it was unclear if Parker is willing to be Tilton's apprentice.
United's board is to meet on Thursday to hear about its strategic options from officials, including the US Airways merger and a marketing alliance with Continental Airlines (CAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research), the FT said.
Officials for both airlines were not immediately available for comment. (Reporting by Aarthi Sivaraman; Editing by David Holmes)

 

[FLYLOW22]

http://www.kmov.com/localnews/stories/kmov_localnews_080509_doll.e5cba55a.html

So this is what happens when the integration goes "well"?

What's next guys?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Boy, that gives a whole new meaning to
PRofessionalism" and "Leadership"

How much longer are those 2 pilots gonna stay on the property?

 

[Fubijaakr]

I gotta tell you, boys, this Parker thing means this merger is going to happen.

First order of business...representation election to toss USAPA into the garbage can of history.

 

[Guppiedriver]

http://www.kmov.com/localnews/stories/kmov_localnews_080509_doll.e5cba55a.html

So this is what happens when the integration goes "well"?

What's next guys?

Who said it was going well?

I'm sure DOH would have prevented this from occurring.

Hmmm....I didn't realize that the USAPAians were an ethnic group.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm sure DOH would have prevented this from occurring.

Only if Nicolau had ruled it.

Hmmm....I didn't realize that the USAPAians were an ethnic group.

Naw, they're just a hate group.