United outsourcing pilot jobs with codeshare

[labbats]

No, your not. But if there wasn't SJS, wh%^$, and wh%^$ wages out there, then it wouldn't be problem would it?

Ask yourself how you would make a living as a pilot if you started flying in the last 10 years. You can't get hired at a Legacy without having first flown those shiny jets. I'd fly a Cessna 172 for decent pay and work rules as I'm sure most regional pilots would.

 

[lionflyer]

I'm sorry, but I do blame ALPA. What is the point of a national union that is splintered? For crying out loud, create one payrate for each type and the whipsaw ends.

Yes and No. You have to take into account work rules or lack thereof at some airlines and EVERYONE needs to be unionized under the SAME union. Then the union can refuse to sign TA's unless it meets said payrate for whatever type aircraft. ALPA's too stupid and too stuck in the 80's to think of this.

 

[bluefin]

Ask yourself how you would make a living as a pilot if you started flying in the last 10 years. You can't get hired at a Legacy without having first flown those shiny jets. I'd fly a Cessna 172 for decent pay and work rules as I'm sure most regional pilots would.

I started in the right seat of a 19 seater for 11.50 an hr in , worked my way up to left seat brasilia. I built my pic and then got hired at UAL and made the mistake of going. There were maybe 10 rjs on property then. I started 14 yrs ago and look what is happening. This career sucks. Now, all see is crj 700, emb 170, and emb145 flying my routes, parking at my gates. What would be the sentiment of all your flying going back to the legacies and you were thrown onto the streets. I once had a regional guy sitting in my jumpseat and telling me that if I wanted to work at his company(one of my previous employers) that I needed to go to the bottom of the seniority list, because everyone has to start at the bottom and pay their dues. I told I would gladly take his job and that his company would not have to buy me a captains uniform because I already have one. This guy didn't even start flying until I was well into my first furlough. That is why I have the attitude towards regionals, according to this guy and many others I am sure, I haven't PAID MY DUES YET? Sure I could start in the right seat of an EMB 170 for 23 hr, but it wouldn't support the family. I would have to fly with someone who doesn't even know what a EMB110 Bandit is or let alone shave.

 

[TAWS]

I started in the right seat of a 19 seater for 11.50 an hr in , worked my way up to left seat brasilia. I built my pic and then got hired at UAL and made the mistake of going. There were maybe 10 rjs on property then. I started 14 yrs ago and look what is happening. This career sucks. Now, all see is crj 700, emb 170, and emb145 flying my routes, parking at my gates. What would be the sentiment of all your flying going back to the legacies and you were thrown onto the streets. I once had a regional guy sitting in my jumpseat and telling me that if I wanted to work at his company(one of my previous employers) that I needed to go to the bottom of the seniority list, because everyone has to start at the bottom and pay their dues. I told I would gladly take his job and that his company would not have to buy me a captains uniform because I already have one. This guy didn't even start flying until I was well into my first furlough. That is why I have the attitude towards regionals, according to this guy and many others I am sure, I haven't PAID MY DUES YET? Sure I could start in the right seat of an EMB 170 for 23 hr, but it wouldn't support the family. I would have to fly with someone who doesn't even know what a EMB110 Bandit is or let alone shave.

The route you take in life is your choice. Take a look at your post and tell us what the theme is.

1) I made the mistake of going to UAL
2) my .........., my ..........., my ...........

 

[bluefin]

The route you take in life is your choice. Take a look at your post and tell us what the theme is.

1) I made the mistake of going to UAL
2) my .........., my ..........., my ...........

I inderstand that, but piss ant pukes like you are benefiting from the shirt off my back and many others. The attitudes of you and rest of the "guppy Killer" crowd are what I am talking about. If you care to remember lowest bidder got the flying. If your wages weren't so cheap then the flying wouldn't be handed to your companies that simple. Yes MY, cause you were still popping zits when I was flying those routes. Sorry got to go, got to get in line for my unemployment check.

 

[Turtle21]

I love alpa, but I hate it too...

Well... at least you're half right.

 

[outtahere]

I inderstand that, but piss ant pukes like you are benefiting from the shirt off my back and many others. The attitudes of you and rest of the "guppy Killer" crowd are what I am talking about. If you care to remember lowest bidder got the flying. If your wages weren't so cheap then the flying wouldn't be handed to your companies that simple. Yes MY, cause you were still popping zits when I was flying those routes. Sorry got to go, got to get in line for my unemployment check.

Boy this is a round robin argument, we have a job because you gave it to us. You don't have a job because you voted away scope for more pay. Instead of getting mad at the regional guys and gals, look in the mirror, and go slap the senior guys at UAL. That is your real problem, not us. We are a product of mainline greed, plain and simple.

 

[contrail67]

ok...so does anyone know the details of this thread or is it just more hype...details please...anyone?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA member democracy rates:

14% ALPA-PAC
4% LEC attendance
30% LEC voter participation


We the pilots? I don't think so......

 

[surfnfly]

The route you take in life is your choice. Take a look at your post and tell us what the theme is.

Bluefin, Let's check back with TAWS in about 10 years when he can shave, maybe by then he'll be out of Mommy & Daddy's house. Bet he'll still be flying that E170 though making the big bucks because there will be no more mainline jobs available thanks to all the outsourcing. But hey flying an RJ 8 legs a day forever is great.

 

[Caveman]

I notice that the guys complaining about the regionals have regional a/c in their profile. So, I'm guessing when you flew at a regional it was okay, but now you're on the other side of the fence you want to blame the regionals.

The CFI to regional to major model hasn't changed in decades. The only difference is the a/c being flown at the regionals. The part some of you forget is the new pilots have nothing to do what kind of a/c the regionals are now flying. Just like you had no control over that Brasillia or Metro.

I understand your anger and frustration, but it is misplaced. You can blame the senior guys for scope concessions. You can blame deregulation. You can blame the economy. You can blame whatever you want except the new guys. You were here first, therefore you are partly responsible for the way things are. All the new guys are doing is living with what the old guys created.

 

[aewanabe]

Pile-on to what Caveman said here. Bluefin, were you a whore when you worked for 11.50 an hour as a regional pilot? Were you stealing mainline flying as PIC of your Brasilia? If not, why? Didn't you fly your E120 in the colors of the mainline? Do you think that AZO-PIT or DTW-LAN were really commuter routes so it was OK? Just about everything with the exception of some EAS stuff was once flown by mainline pilots in BAC 111s, DC9-10s, even (gasp) CV-580s and DC-3s. But it was ok when you needed to do it because your jet engine drove a really big external fan, right? Pot, meet kettle.

If you've been at UA for 14 years then you've certainly had your chance to give away aircraft and scope. What did you do to stop it? Were you outraged when Air Wisconsin flew BAE-146s and UFS flew gigantic ATPs? Or did it not matter since you were making decent money flying 737s? You say you had no individual power to stop it?!

Guess what, neither do the young guys coming up today. My former regional started out flying BE-99s and is now the borg known as RAH. I know it's frustrating listening to a young punk try to educate you on the industry. But we all know the kids that actually think that are few and far between. Most are trying to come up the same way you did, but your Metroliner and Brasilia have morphed into an E170.

Don't you think guys starting today would rather fly a SAAB or Jetstream for 2-3 years knowing there was actually a decent paying job waiting for them at the end?

 

[Eagle757shark]

As long as they are paying ALPA dues it is not outsourcing. I may have missed it somewhere, but I have yet to see ALPA say anything about the many Legacy pilots losing their jobs to lower paying regionals. If this is not a conflict of interest on ALPA'S part than I don't know what is.

OK Guys how the HELL is this ALPA's fault? Pilots if you want to blame someone, look in the DAMN mirror! We are the ones at fault. We pilots when it comes to negotiations and voting on a contract, we go to one section and that is pay! I believe and always have that the most important aspect of a CONTRACT is SCOPE, that is job protection! But for a few extra hourly pay dollars we sell out and give up our scope. We can't blame ALPA because we vote on this crap and accept it. So look in the mirror guys because our greed and selfishness has put us in this outsourcing mania.

 

[Eagle757shark]

I notice that the guys complaining about the regionals have regional a/c in their profile. So, I'm guessing when you flew at a regional it was okay, but now you're on the other side of the fence you want to blame the regionals.

The CFI to regional to major model hasn't changed in decades. The only difference is the a/c being flown at the regionals. The part some of you forget is the new pilots have nothing to do what kind of a/c the regionals are now flying. Just like you had no control over that Brasillia or Metro.

I understand your anger and frustration, but it is misplaced. You can blame the senior guys for scope concessions. You can blame deregulation. You can blame the economy. You can blame whatever you want except the new guys. You were here first, therefore you are partly responsible for the way things are. All the new guys are doing is living with what the old guys created.

I started in the airline industry at the regionals myself. I don't blame the regionals for any of this. I blame the mainline guys that sold themselves short on giving up scope to gain a few extra dollars. Back in the 90s, if the Delta pilots had insisted through negotiations on the 50 seat jet being flown at Delta, maybe things would be different today. If management wanted the airplane because the consumers wanted them, then there is a rate at which they could operate them and turn a profit. Mainline pilots should have demanded it! We started outsourcing our jobs then, and now the planes have gotten larger. See the senority based system breeds this kind of mentality. "It breeds the I got mine and it can't affect me mentality"! The more senior you become the more you think I can't be touched attitude!
Even if it means a loss of a few dollars, guys we've got to fight for scope. There is nothing wrong with Delta, United, American, US Airways, and Continental flying the E-170/190, CRJ-700/900 or even the CRJ200 and EMB-145. There is nothing wrong with those aircraft being the junior aircraft. But at least the outscourcing would stop!

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I started in the airline industry at the regionals myself. I don't blame the regionals for any of this. I blame the mainline guys that sold themselves short on giving up scope to gain a few extra dollars. Back in the 90s, if the Delta pilots had insisted through negotiations on the 50 seat jet being flown at Delta, maybe things would be different today. If management wanted the airplane because the consumers wanted them, then there is a rate at which they could operate them and turn a profit. Mainline pilots should have demanded it! We started outsourcing our jobs then, and now the planes have gotten larger. See the senority based system breeds this kind of mentality. "It breeds the I got mine and it can't affect me mentality"! The more senior you become the more you think I can't be touched attitude!
Even if it means a loss of a few dollars, guys we've got to fight for scope. There is nothing wrong with Delta, United, American, US Airways, and Continental flying the E-170/190, CRJ-700/900 or even the CRJ200 and EMB-145. There is nothing wrong with those aircraft being the junior aircraft. But at least the outscourcing would stop!

AMEN!

 

[get2flyin]

Pile-on to what Caveman said here. Bluefin, were you a whore when you worked for 11.50 an hour as a regional pilot? Were you stealing mainline flying as PIC of your Brasilia? If not, why? Didn't you fly your E120 in the colors of the mainline? Do you think that AZO-PIT or DTW-LAN were really commuter routes so it was OK? Just about everything with the exception of some EAS stuff was once flown by mainline pilots in BAC 111s, DC9-10s, even (gasp) CV-580s and DC-3s. But it was ok when you needed to do it because your jet engine drove a really big external fan, right? Pot, meet kettle.

If you've been at UA for 14 years then you've certainly had your chance to give away aircraft and scope. What did you do to stop it? Were you outraged when Air Wisconsin flew BAE-146s and UFS flew gigantic ATPs? Or did it not matter since you were making decent money flying 737s? You say you had no individual power to stop it?!

Guess what, neither do the young guys coming up today. My former regional started out flying BE-99s and is now the borg known as RAH. I know it's frustrating listening to a young punk try to educate you on the industry. But we all know the kids that actually think that are few and far between. Most are trying to come up the same way you did, but your Metroliner and Brasilia have morphed into an E170.

Don't you think guys starting today would rather fly a SAAB or Jetstream for 2-3 years knowing there was actually a decent paying job waiting for them at the end?

The problem is that the definition of "regional aircraft" has been so warped. A 34 seat turbo-prop hardly competed with a 737. It was a "feed" aircraft and one could easily create the compelling argument that by bringing more passengers into the hubs, turbo-props actually created more mainline jobs. That gave commuter pilot a place to interview with and move up into. Now the kid fresh out of school is flying a 90 seat jet. It's a no-brainer for the management types to transfer flying away from the mainline aircraft. In the mean time, who's making small "feed" turbo-props? Whose buying them? Nobody

The RJs should have been operated by the mainline companies but the unions were willing to give that flying away because they were too proud to flying those "toy" airplanes and didn't see a 50 seater as a threat. They foolishly assumed the passengers would demand long legs be flown by large aircraft and the airlines would give passengers what they wanted. They assumed wrong. Don't feel bad, Boeing didn't take them seriously either.

The present day "Regional Jets" aren't regional jets at all. When a plane carries 80-90 passengers half way across the country and has the name United, Northwest, or who ever on the side of it, that aircraft should be owned and operated by the same group of pilots that fly the larger aircraft. The problem is how do you bridge that gap and merge the seniority lists? Prior to 9/11, Eagle asked AA if they would consider merging the lists and the APA laughed the "regional trash" asses out of the building. After 9/11, during the furloughs, AA came to EGL and wanted to merge the lists. All EGL pilots would be stapled to the bottom. All AA pilots would be brought back from furlough, displacing most of the EGL pilots. They said it was a great deal because one day EGL pilots would be on mainline aircraft. The sucker punch was that AA, after merging the lists, wanted the right to hire pilots above the EGL pilots because, "it wasn't right for guys to come out of the squadron and have to go to the right seat of a Saab, junior to all of those kids at Eagle". Good luck, UAL, you'll need it.

 

[Superpilot92]

I started in the airline industry at the regionals myself. I don't blame the regionals for any of this. I blame the mainline guys that sold themselves short on giving up scope to gain a few extra dollars. Back in the 90s, if the Delta pilots had insisted through negotiations on the 50 seat jet being flown at Delta, maybe things would be different today. If management wanted the airplane because the consumers wanted them, then there is a rate at which they could operate them and turn a profit. Mainline pilots should have demanded it! We started outsourcing our jobs then, and now the planes have gotten larger. See the senority based system breeds this kind of mentality. "It breeds the I got mine and it can't affect me mentality"! The more senior you become the more you think I can't be touched attitude!
Even if it means a loss of a few dollars, guys we've got to fight for scope. There is nothing wrong with Delta, United, American, US Airways, and Continental flying the E-170/190, CRJ-700/900 or even the CRJ200 and EMB-145. There is nothing wrong with those aircraft being the junior aircraft. But at least the outscourcing would stop!

BINGO!! 100% Correct!!!

 

[lionflyer]

BINGO!! 100% Correct!!!

Yup!! Unfortunately, that cat left the bag a long time ago. I don't see getting anything back when every judge or arbitrator rules in favor of these companies over and over and over again.

 

[saabservant]

Force the Issue!

Civil Disobedience...but it requires leadership, and sacrifice....

Semper Fidelis

 

[vtwo]

SCOPE
if it sold as a ticket on UAL, NWA, DAL or whatever then it should be flown by those employee's


Ask SWA how the code share is going to help them.
no growth but yet revenue will increase with more miles flown by others at lower wages and benefits.
It's all contract work now Boys, negotiate what you can for your self.

If I Buy a ticket on nwa to go MSP to TPA I want NWA, not compass,mesaba, asa, delta, pinnacle, ect.
Maybe I just stuborn.