United furloughs

[JJGMADDOG]

Skippy good to hear from you....Merry X-mas to you too!!!

 

[theflyingcondor]

Condor....

Just got back from a trip and saw the last few posts. Thanks for the apology. Accepted, although it should be your misinformed AA buddy apologizing to you for the crap he's been feeding you.

First off, it is a total windfall, if not criminal, that the 2000 hires are still working and TWA captains from 88 are being furloughed. Remember, this was NOT like PanAm/Delta. The intent was much different as noted by, among other things, the big party slogan "Two great airlines, One great furture", given by AA. You cannot compare this to the USAirways guys being furloughed either. This is about an unfair integration. Just because a company is ACQUIRED doesn't equate to loss of seniority. Where in the hell did you get this? Ever heard of Air Canada (I think that was the one)??? I do agree with you somewhat that the financially stronger carrier should have an advantage. Rightful seniority is more about being a certain percentage on the seniority list before AND after the integration, and quality of life not changing for the worse. These guys at AA gained THOUSANDS of numbers (but it's not really about numbers) and up to 20% of seniority OVERNIGHT. And as a result were not furloughed at all or much later than if not for TWA. That is a FACT.

You keep talking about debt. Again, ever heard of Worldspan? Ask you AA buddy and get back to me on that one. Ya know, there were other things like new aircraft, established routes, facilities, trained employees, San Juan (see effect of ticket prices), etc... AA chose which debt not to take.

Sinking ship??.....Not after AA chose which debt not to take. Then again, there's not many ships out there not sinking today.

As for the aquisition.....Gee, this was more like a merger though, don't ya think? Ya know, they all look very similiar in complicated purchases. How much experience in "Corporate America" did you say you had?
Also, ask your AA buddy when the aquisition actually took place. Then ask him when the APA decided to give us our "AA Date-of-hire". Then ask him why he did this to us. Any windfall there that you can see? Get back to me on that one too.

Do you really want to compare us to Reno? They got stapled, right? Or was it date-of-hire? What did you say? It's the same?

Why don't you compare us to AirCal instead?

You said,"Who cares if it's AA or TWA aircraft" (that's still flying). EXACTLY!!!
You are correct, however, the APA sure had a problem with this and it was one of their main excuses for their actions. Now, it doesn't really matter to them since the total opposite happened. We all know that eventually all airplanes will be replaced someday and for different reasons.

Why did you say my career was stolen by ALPA? Stolen and given to whom?

Rubberdog, I've pulld out of this discussion for the simple reason that I don't feel qualified enough to discuss it in detail.

I will say that my acquaintances at AA are men that I hold in high esteem, and I doubt they would feed me any "crap". Likewise, there are men of the same caliber at TWA as I'm sure you know. What we have here is the classic merger symptoms where both sided feel they were treated unfairly on a number of issues. Regardless of what you deem as "facts", there will always be those who do not view them as "facts" but rather opinions.

You say that it is "criminal" that '00 hires are still working at AA while '88 guys are getting furloughed - I must point out that's an opinion, not fact. The very fact you used the word "criminal" shows me that you are exaggerating and emotionally stretching the truth. Which is understandable, if you were affected, but it is nonetheless an opinion. I do know that some at AA think it is "criminal" that the TWA pilots were not all placed at the bottom, although I never shared that view. They are also expressing opinions, not facts.

Whether the integration is fair or not - that will be decided in a court of law. The pilots can debate it till the cows come home.... but the judge's verdict will prevail.

My STL-based AA friends are quick to point out that they bear the brunt of the TWA pilots' wrath, even though they had nothing to do with the integration, merger, etc. That is lame and immature, if it's going on. If the TWA pilots want to wage a war, they should direct it to the APA or ALPA leaders that put the whole thing together, not the rank and file line pilot who had nothing to do with it.

I used the USAir analogy simply because USAir itself is a combination of merged/acquired airlines. Therefore, you could make the argument that those who are not furloughed yet may still be working because others lost or gained seniority through a previous merger, and were furloughed sooner than expected. Same deal with AA/TWA. That is an unfortunate fact of mergers, and that is why I personally feel that the '88 TWA hires are roughly in the same boat as the '88 USAir hires.

Finally, I said that ALPA "stole your career" because with all the thousands in dues you paid them, they dissed you in the merger and didn't put up a fight for what you would deem a better deal. Total breach of duty and misrepresentation.

Rubberdog, opininons will be opinions... The TWA pilots are doing the only thing they can, suing the APA/ALPA/AA for a chance at better seniority. The AA pilots are trying to prevent that from happening because they think the deal was more than fair, due to the financial position TWA was in (REGARDLESS of debt AA chose to take.) In their eyes, the TWA pilots are attempting to steal the AA pilots' rightful seniority. As I mentioned before, these are all issues that are PRESENT IN EVERY AIRLINE MERGER IN HISTORY!!

I wish you the best, as I do to all furloughed pilots regardless of why they were furloughed, or what airline they came from.

 

[Andy]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for hijacking the thread. ... this puppy should've been dead and buried, and the AA/TWA integration discussion held on one of the many other threads dealing with this subject. But since this used to be a UAL thread, I'll weigh in with my opinion (hey, I'm an a-hole, so I've got an opinion).

I'd like to make it clear that I know plenty of AA and TWA pilots and have heard both sides of the story far too often. I've gotten to the point where I don't want to drink anymore because I keep having barroom flashbacks to one side or the other whining about the takeover.

As far as pre-takeover TWA, you had THE best people working there. The pilots were laid back but professional. Most of the FAs were 'cat ranchers,' but great people nontheless. You were my favorite airline to jumpseat on. But the company had terminal cancer that went by the name of Caribu. Caribu was going to kill TWA, even if 9/11 never occurred.
I remember TWA's CSRs (great people) working with monochrome monitors and just one CSR working a flight; an FA would collect tickets at the doorway. This was truly an operation held together by bubble gum and bailing wire. The city of St Louis was dumping money into TWA just to keep it afloat. So any of you ex-TWAers who have illusions of grandeur for the once great airline, I suggest a reality check.

AMR acquired TWA for an overflow hub in the midwest; ORD and DFW were near capacity. AMR's first choice was NWAC with their DTW and MSP hubs, but they were rebuffed by NWAC management. TWA was the ugly girl that was an easy dance partner. And AMR needed a dance partner. So AMR asked the ugly girl to dance with him, and she did.

Neither dance partner envisioned 9/11. Had 9/11 never occurred, I'm sure there would still be b!tching on both sides, but not to this degree. IF TWA had been a standalone airline post-911, they'd have joined Vanguard and National on the scrapheap of airline history. How can I say that with confidence? Because TWA owned nothing and were mortgaged to the eye teeth. TWA was forced to get loans at rates that would make mobsters blush. TWA had people bailing to other airlines prior to the takeover; those that opted to stay were in the same boat as current UAIR employees.

Prior to 9/11, I labeled the TWA acquisition as an albatross around AMR's neck; Carty's folly. Others hailed the buyout as a stroke of genius. Why did I call it an albatross? STL is a sh!tty airport; single runway ops when the wx craps out, a rundown terminal, lousy O&D traffic (a bunch of unemployed rednecks), and the southwest invasion at the south terminal. Talk about a freaking basket case.

So, in conclusion, all of you ex-TWAers whining about how AMR treated you, I suggest that you talk to your buds at Vanguard and National and ask them if they've still got a line number.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

If the post 1988 TWA crybabies can take a break from crying in their beer of what a great career choice they made, maybe they can elaborate on this;

Does the name Captain Leon Johnson ring a bell?Who was he, and why if TWA was such a great deal, what career move did he make compared to yours?

 

[potrack]

Quit squaking about TWA.

Let's face it, your company was weak and got bought out by a bigger company.
That's the way it is. AA was better and TWA got bought.

How many people from McDonnell Douglas bitch about getting bought by Boeing.

TWA is done----let it go............I'm sure it was fun while it lasted, but its gone.

When you had the chance to work for a bigger airline a long time ago----you should have went there. I'm tired of listening to guys who say, "Yeah...I got offered a job from AA, UAL, DAL, and US Airways....I thought I would choose USAir"

 

[XTW]

If the post 1988 TWA crybabies can take a break from crying in their beer of what a great career choice they made, maybe they can elaborate on this;

Does the name Captain Leon Johnson ring a bell?Who was he, and why if TWA was such a great deal, what career move did he make compared to yours?

What's your point, we all make decisions. Leon made a good one. I hope he is as happy as ALL other pilots, from ALL other previous carriers are at their new jobs.

 

[AA717driver]

C150ETOPS--What? Are you UPS management?

Leon Johnson was yet another management suck up who probably left with less time at TWA than a normal(meaning not a management suckup) newhire gets in his or her first couple of years on the line.

In fact, when did he upgrade at TWA? He left in '90 and the only Captains at TWA in '90 had been hired in the late 60's. Unless he was in the training center and was allowed to fly Captain out of seniority... Or maybe OZ management. Same thing.

No tears were shed when he went straight to UPS management during their huge expansion.

BTW, all of USAir's mergers went DOH.TC

 

[Flying the Line]

The Eastern Pilots did a great thing by getting rid of Frank Lorenzo, who had no business being in airlines, they unfortunately paid for that with their jobs.


The TWA pilots did a great thing by getting rid of Carl Ichan, who had no busihness being in airlines, Only 7 of them paid for that with their jobs, while the other 3/4 (and myself) are still on unpaid vacation time.

 

[EAP]

Quit squaking about TWA.

When you had the chance to work for a bigger airline a long time ago----you should have went there. I'm tired of listening to guys who say, "Yeah...I got offered a job from AA, UAL, DAL, and US Airways....I thought I would choose USAir"

That's a very bad piece of advice. Lot's of formerly well employed pilots who would have been captains at a stable major airline, that at one time seemed too small and scrappy compared to the giants, are now furloughed by the "bigger airline" and flying for random companies everywhere until a benevolent LCC or unlikely recall ends the circus... until the next unforseen event occurs of course and somebody else chimes in with another "shoulda, coulda, woulda" solution that should have been considered with advanced perspective way back when... Whoaaa... did I say that out loud???

What makes an AA guy "smart" or "superior" for being there, and a UAL guy "arrogant" for thinking his giant ship would never ram the iceburg? It's all a crap shoot and the best man - er, pilot, doesn't always simply end up in the best position when it's all said and done. Hence a lot of really darned great TWA guys are getting the cement shoes for no other reason than happenstance. I feel for you guys and there are a whole lot of others in your shoes right now too though.

The truth of the matter is TWA was THE place to work many years ago, and it still had a lot of momentum keeping some of the best in the industry there. Now it is finally gone to hell in a handbasket but my feeling is that nothing will be solved here on this bichin board so please everyone relax and keep flying safe. Most importantly remember to value the good things in your life and not get too caught up in the many negative side shows in our lovely careers.

 

[potrack]

So should the disgruntled AA/TWA furloughed guy say----F-AA, I'm gonna go be a 777 capt for contract trans-whatever-asia airline because at least I'll be a 777 capt.

come on.....you still got your foot in the door with the largest airline in the world.

AA vs contract job...........................???????????????????