United/Continental Scope

[aztruck]

United and Continental - Scope is NOT for Sale
There are a million things that are going to happen regarding this merger over the next two years, but the biggest impact is going to be from whether or not we take the stance right now that scope is not and will never be for sale by this joint pilot group.

We have the chance to get something back now that has been degrading this profession since 9/11. Let's do something about it. Please call your reps and tell them that a contract with scope relief is a no vote regardless of any other content.

Do not let management "manage" our expectations in the new contract. They are the ones under pressure from Wall Street to get this thing done the Delta way, and that includes a contract.

Lets get a contract that eliminates all 70 seat flying at the expiration of each agreement; one that contains solid work rules and will provide some career stability (at least to the extent possible). I understand that those guys who are just around for 5-10 more years may be more interested in dollars, but I ask all of you to consider the future of this profession before you vote with your wallet. Many have sacrificed in the past so that we might have a smoother, safer, and better future as pilots.

We stand at a fork in the road right now. We have negotiating power as labor is required to make this deal shine to Wall Street. Let's make the right decision and set this career back on the right path. If we as a pilot group of 11,000 cannot take back some of what has been given with the leverage that we hold right now, then we have most certainly failed.

Someone please post this on each individual airline forum, and anywhere else it might motivate some to take action. We need to take charge of this situation and join together to create an airline we can be proud to spend the rest of our careers at. We hold the cards, lets play them wisely as many other pilots, both current and future are depending on us.

 

[Whydoitry]

Sorry, it's very difficult for me to support putting myself out of a job. But I have no control over this, so good luck to all.

 

[scarlet]

Buh bye republic !!!!

 

[inflightboi175]

buy bye skywest 700s

 

[Homer Jay]

Buh Bye, Mesa!

 

[johnpeace]

If history is any guide...

 

[CX880]

Many have sacrificed in the past so that we might have a smoother, safer, and better future as pilots.

.

No they haven't. That's the whole point of why there is misery in the pilot profession, every pilot group is out for themselves. Why would there be a change now? Most scope agreements in history, have been good for that pilot group but have screwed others. MESA/Freedom, RAH certificates, UA, AMR 50seat scope wich brought about RAH and TSA/Gojet etc. And the guy with 5-10 years left has absolutely no reason to make the 40 year guy happy, he's more senior, you are delusional if you think otherwise, it's been like that in aviation since the beginning.

 

[Flyer1015]

No they haven't. That's the whole point of why there is misery in the pilot profession, every pilot group is out for themselves. Why would there be a change now? Most scope agreements in history, have been good for that pilot group but have screwed others. MESA/Freedom, RAH certificates, UA, AMR 50seat scope etc. And the 5-10 year guy has absolutely no reason to make the 40 year guy happy, he's more senior, you are delusional if you think otherwise, it's been like that in aviation since the beginning.

If history is any guide...

I agree, you two have nailed it on the head.

 

[Jetjockey]

Time will tell..................place your bets.

 

[79%N1]

.....cause all those 70 seat jobs will go right to mainline!!! Sure!!! Whats actually more likely (certain) to happen is the removal of 1 seat to make them 69 seats. Oh wait, United already did that to create the 3 class service with 66 seats. Oh well.

 

[Jetjockey]

.....cause all those 70 seat jobs will go right to mainline!!! Sure!!! Whats actually more likely (certain) to happen is the removal of 1 seat to make them 69 seats. Oh wait, United already did that to create the 3 class service with 66 seats. Oh well.

66 seats, that violates existing CAL scope. While past performance and history may be good indicators, they are not the100% accurate for future predictions. Let us not forget that many of the scope relaxations were taken post 9-11, Force majeure, and chapter 1113(c) filings. (i.e gun to head). If you haven't keep your eye on the ball, the paradigm is shifting once again. Labor has more levergae than many assume. It will be used. Scope relaxation is a non-starter. The argument that older 50-60 year olds will sell out the younger is BS. We all have seen enough stagnation and proliferate outsourcing. We are reminded everyday when we see our former jobs parked at the gates in shiny new jets, with shiny new pilots with low pay doing what was once a well-paid MAJOR airline job. 1500+ furloughed pilots want their jobs back, NOW.

SCOPE IS NOT FOR SALE! CONCESSION STAND IS CLOSED.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The only possible way the small jet flying MAY come back to mainline is if they undercut the current regional rates and start them off at year one longevity....Now why would I want to start all over again flying the same airplane for much less money and a worse schedule? It's a suckers bet....

 

[Jetjockey]

The target isn't small jets. The target is over 50 seats. That's where the growth is. Economics will slowly weed out the glut of 50 seaters. They are already being replaced by efficient turboprops.

 

[johnpeace]

The target isn't small jets. The target is over 50 seats. That's where the growth is. Economics will slowly weed out the glut of 50 seaters. They are already being replaced by efficient turboprops.

It looks to me like they're being replaced with ~70 seat jets.

 

[nerjdriver]

Sorry, it's very difficult for me to support putting myself out of a job. But I have no control over this, so good luck to all.

Out of what job? Having relaxed scope at UAL/CAL will just extend the amount of time you work for nothing at a regional 5-10 years. It will eliminate the A320/737 and you will be a regional pilot until you are 45-50. That kind of narrow minded attitude is why we are where we are.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

The only possible way the small jet flying MAY come back to mainline is if they undercut the current regional rates and start them off at year one longevity....Now why would I want to start all over again flying the same airplane for much less money and a worse schedule? It's a suckers bet....

Really? I have a hard time believing both MECs and over 50% of the pilot groups will agree to that.

 

[79%N1]

The target isn't small jets. The target is over 50 seats. That's where the growth is. Economics will slowly weed out the glut of 50 seaters. They are already being replaced by efficient turboprops.

Really? And just where is that happening? Other than the Usairways DHC-8 fleet (which is much smaller than 5-8 yrs ago) and some 400's for CoEx at Colgan, I can't think of one major flying many (Skywest and Mesaba for Delta/United and shrinking/going away) and certainly none replacing Jets with Turboprops.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Nice try guys, I do wish you had taken this position 15 years ago. It ain't gonna happen, the contracts provide for payment even if the planes are parked. If you think mgmt is gonna just say OK, we will park those 70 seaters that you hate so much and continue to pay those contracts, al la messa out of the goodness of their hearts. You will have to pay dearly for those planes. If you think about it, mgmt has the ability to eliminate the pilots on every contract at the expiration of said contract. If you think they will give up this ability, simply because you want 51+ seat A/C back on the seniority list, good luck. The same pilots who sold those airframes are on your MEC and the average rank and file pilot ain't gonna pay the 5-20% it will take to get these A/C back on the property.
Horse is not just out the gate, it has been hit by a semi and is dogfood.
PBR

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Nice try guys, I do wish you had taken this position 15 years ago. It ain't gonna happen, the contracts provide for payment even if the planes are parked. If you think mgmt is gonna just say OK, we will park those 70 seaters that you hate so much and continue to pay those contracts, al la messa out of the goodness of their hearts./QUOTE]

Read the whole thing you idiot! It clearly says:
"Lets get a contract that eliminates all 70 seat flying at the expiration of each agreement"

Your whole argument is a waste you moron.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Nice try guys, I do wish you had taken this position 15 years ago. It ain't gonna happen, the contracts provide for payment even if the planes are parked. If you think mgmt is gonna just say OK, we will park those 70 seaters that you hate so much and continue to pay those contracts, al la messa out of the goodness of their hearts./QUOTE]

Read the whole thing you idiot! It clearly says:
"Lets get a contract that eliminates all 70 seat flying at the expiration of each agreement"

Your whole argument is a waste you moron.

Wow, I guess the meds aren't working, huh? The only people who stick their butts further into the air than regional pilots are the mainline pilots, they would shove each other under the bus faster than than they would regional pilots, reason? If they stab each other from the same seniority list the payoff is quicker. You were the same putz's who got a chubbie when you got to fly the regional "9" and now are gonna take it all up with you. Newsflash next time you are flying look over at the guy sitting next to you, he would sell your kids into slavery for an additional $3.00 per hr, and another day off per month. Pilots on the whole are some of the most pathetic snivelers I have ever met. You will pay to play, work for substandard wages to get to the next step, and when and if you get there will stab each other for any additional perks that treachery will allow. Now go back to your Dr Evil plans to rule the world. Come back in 5 years, your company will offer the potential for 787s if you just allow a few C Series at Peenuckle to fill the gaps until "YOUR" 787 hits the property, and you will slam your boner in the car door trying to get to HDQ to sign off on the "promise"
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Really? I have a hard time believing both MECs and over 50% of the pilot groups will agree to that.

They will "establish" a sub par pay scale, and staff it with the same guys who were flying them just a few months ago at a regional. This will be the new "B" scale. The more you think you are different, the more you are the same as your predecessors. If you think MGMT will let go of their divide and conquer process easily, you are kidding yourself.
PBR

 

[NoJoy]

I think it's a great idea that eventually there will be no rj larger than a fifty seater flying under this "new" airline flag. And the current furloughed pilots from both airlines would agree. But I have a feeling you will see a Crj 700 in the new Continental colors in the near future-

 

[79%N1]

Got to agree with PBR. The planes if ever forced to mainline will go at a wage that is substandard of what the regionals are flying them for! Need proof, look at the Delta scale for planes already at DCI. So what does taking the airframes to mainline do for the pilots there? The pilots already have jobs there. So are you telling me that your new stance on scope is because you are looking out for us regional guys and our future jobs flying planes we already fly, but now at mainline - but for less money?? No thanks! Who are you really looking out for, and who are you hurting?

 

[CX880]

Wow, I guess the meds aren't working, huh? The only people who stick their butts further into the air than regional pilots are the mainline pilots, they would shove each other under the bus faster than than they would regional pilots, reason? If they stab each other from the same seniority list the payoff is quicker. You were the same putz's who got a chubbie when you got to fly the regional "9" and now are gonna take it all up with you. Newsflash next time you are flying look over at the guy sitting next to you, he would sell your kids into slavery for an additional $3.00 per hr, and another day off per month. Pilots on the whole are some of the most pathetic snivelers I have ever met. You will pay to play, work for substandard wages to get to the next step, and when and if you get there will stab each other for any additional perks that treachery will allow. Now go back to your Dr Evil plans to rule the world. Come back in 5 years, your company will offer the potential for 787s if you just allow a few C Series at Peenuckle to fill the gaps until "YOUR" 787 hits the property, and you will slam your boner in the car door trying to get to HDQ to sign off on the "promise"
PBR

WTF? All this talk coming from the one that flys a CRJ9 at a regional airline. For 3 dollars more per hour than the lowest CRJ7 rates.

 

[Jetjockey]

Really? And just where is that happening? Other than the Usairways DHC-8 fleet (which is much smaller than 5-8 yrs ago) and some 400's for CoEx at Colgan, I can't think of one major flying many (Skywest and Mesaba for Delta/United and shrinking/going away) and certainly none replacing Jets with Turboprops.

Horizon.
FlyBe (Europe)
Colgan
Lynx (before the buyout by RP)
Jazz

just to name a few.

 

[Jetjockey]

It looks to me like they're being replaced with ~70 seat jets.

Which is why anything over 50 seats belongs to mainline scope.

 

[79%N1]

Horizon.
FlyBe (Europe)
Colgan
Lynx (before the buyout by RP)
Jazz

just to name a few.

And where is there any data to back up that these carriers are "replacing Jets with turboprops"? Lynx is gone. Not sure about Europe, but TProps are not as "taboo" to Euro's.

That is a pretty small sample......

 

[PBRstreetgang]

WTF? All this talk coming from the one that flys a CRJ9 at a regional airline. For 3 dollars more per hour than the lowest CRJ7 rates.

Turd burglar,
Coming from a booger eating, mouth breathing half wit, its hard to understand anything you say.I have pegged this industry and how it operates from very early on. Hulas, decides to corn hole his very own employee group, and YOU, hand him th cob. The only satisfaction I get is knowing your time is coming up sooner than you think. If you aren't from Hulas's caste, you are poo, and I am gonna bet you aren't from Hulas's caste, so guess what bag you are left holding? My only hope is you find some half retarded flight attendant and get her too drunk to realize you are naked and on top of her and bareback too boot, knock her up and have a batch of lil tards. She sobers up and hits you with child support, because she won't have anything to do with you, except cash your checks.
But I digress
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Which is why anything over 50 seats belongs to mainline scope.

You are exactly right, but unringing that bell won't be cheap, if at all possible.
PBR

 

[bvt1151]

It's so cute hearing you guys beat your war drums while 60% + of your comrades continue to vote your scope away piece by piece. The fundamental force driving the migration of scope limits that you need to understand is that you either buy scope protection, or get paid to relax it.

How much of a pay cut are you willing to take at mainline to buy back scope? Better yet, how much of a pay cut are the senior captains willing to take? So far, the answer at every single airline has been $0. You will not buy back scope. As someone said, that horse is out of the gate, hit by a truck, and is dog food. You can't unopen Pandora's box.

So now the question is, how much are you willing to sell scope relaxation for? Of course we all know what the members of this forum will say, but let's face it, history is a hell of a lot louder than your drums.

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that somehow you're going to be able to defy history and the greedy upper 2/3's of the seniority list by keeping scope exactly where it is right now. They'll still be able to add unlimited 70-seaters under the United scope. Want that spigit turned off? You'll have to buy it back.

The elephant in the thread that nobody seems to want to talk about is Continental's latest offer of Delta +1%. That's a nice little chunk of change the United pilots are certainly going to go for, if offered. Don't forget the Delta + 1% includes the 76-seaters as well.

So the question comes back: Is your pilot group (not just you) willing to buy back scope with pay cuts? I'd say we see 60/40 ratification of Delta + 1%. Then you'll be back talking about how you'll be holding the line at 76. The good news there, though, is that I think you can hold the line at 76 seat.

No airline has broken through that 76-seat glass ceiling yet, but they've obliterated the 50-seat ceiling. Hold the line where we can hold the line. Otherwise, the alternating stage-climb of scope relaxations will continue. There's even been talk of the new C-Series being flown at regionals, which should be too absurd for airlines to even discuss. Unfortunately, they're just drawing out the trend, and we've quite a reputation of putting out.