United career progression

[Andy]

The fact is that I have never claimed to have served in the military.

Those of us who have been on FI for a while remember you trying to pawn yourself off as a Vietnam veteran on this board. It wasn't until you were called on it that you admitted that you've never served in the military.
I noticed that you also claim on another website to have founded a university aerobatics team. Funny, the team's written history has a different name associated with the founding of the team.

I guess I made it into my airline career the hard way, like most of those being hired now and especially those currently flying for the Regionals.[/quote]

UF, you were hired at United when you were 22 years old. Would you care to elaborate how you made your career the 'hard way?'
Being a CFI during the summers in Chicago while going to college? Oh yeah, that was really hard.

I just have no interest in flying any more 16-hour legs, then feeling like a zombie for days, only to do it all over again in three days.

Ah, yes. That reminds me of the points that I made about the mental and physiological effects of aging and why I opposed a change to age 65. Thanks for lowering safety margins in the industry.

UF, your negative comments about United need to carry the disclaimer that you're still bitter about retiring at age 60 with a single digit line number, and are now bitter that you aren't still a senior captain, bidding the ORD-HNL route. I do, however, find it quite humorous that you're railing on United management for not ordering more aircraft when the economy's going into a recession - talk about being oblivious to the financial side of the business.
UF, that was a total cheap shot taken at United's training. It may not be the top training course out there, but it's pretty darned good.
The biggest problem with United is that the senior pilots at United trashed the contract for junior pilots while perserving QOL to the maximum extent for senior pilots.
The way that pension settlement was handled by UAL-ALPA is a perfect example. It was shameful watching the senior pilots stacking it so that they received maximum payment while giving retirees zero and the junior pilots crumbs. Compare the settlement with Northwest and Delta. Greed of the highest order.

Is United the best place to work? No; that's why I'm still on mil leave. Unfortunately, it's not just United's management; the senior pilots at United share a lot of the blame for the plight of the junior pilot. I suppose it's the same as any other airline; greedy self-serving baby boomers - that greed just seems to be more amplified at United. I suppose it's due to the screening process used to hire pilots at United back in the 60s and 70s.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Those of us who have been on FI for a while remember you trying to pawn yourself off as a Vietnam veteran on this board. It wasn't until you were called on it that you admitted that you've never served in the military.
I noticed that you also claim on another website to have founded a university aerobatics team. Funny, the team's written history has a different name associated with the founding of the team.

Andy: The fact is that I have never ever claimed to be a military pilot. I was from the Vietnam era and I have said that the pilots who served in Vietnam were getting screwed on the age 60 rule, but that doesn't say that I have made a claim to have been a military pilot who served in Vietnam. As I have said before, most everyone from that generation did everything in their power to avoid service in that unfortunate war, including our last two presidents. The only presidential candidate's who actually served in harm's way in Vietnam, Gore and Kerry got screwed over like most of the Vietnam vets.

Regarding the Aerobatic questions. It is fact that I was the founding father of the entire IAC collegiate aerobatic program while serving as Chairman of that IAC program for 3-years. I personally wrote all the rules and brought the program on-line for IAC with the approval of the IAC Board. I am most proud of my contribution to that most worthwhile program. So no matter what you may have read, it was simply incomplete in whatever it said. And the program at SIU could not have happened without my involvement in that team. The SIU aerobatic team is a great success story. These are the facts yet you want to discredit my work on this effort. I ask that you proceed with more caution before you make such reckless statements.

 

[pipe]

You know UF, I just don't think you're ever gonna get a "FAIR" shake around here again. That train left the station about 12-18 months ago. You may remember, you were the engineer.

You were just too selfish to ever be taken seriously. I've hear several stories from UAL guys that you've flown with about your penchant for "stretching the truth" (blimp Captain comes to mind, among others). That's what makes the Vietnam stuff difficult to swallow. You may not have said you were a military vet - you implied it. Remember when your kids were little? You'd have called that a lie in a second.

PIPE

 

[F/O]

UF is a proven liar. Why would anyone further believe anything he says? Glad he's gone. Boo-frickin-hoo...

 

[SoCentralRain]

I guess I made it into my airline career the hard way, like most of those being hired now and especially those currently flying for the Regionals.

Al:
C'mon! You cannot be serious. You think you made it into your airline career "the hard way"? You graduated from SIU in 1969 and was hired almost immediately afterward. How much total time did you have by then? How much turbine PIC did you have? How many type ratings did you have? It wasn't "the hard way", Al. It was timing, pure and simple. You were at the right place at the right time. But WITHOUT a trememdous amount of "time."

Now, timing wasn't on your side this past December. If it was, I think we'd be hearing an entirely different tune from you regarding your +37 year career with United.

Now UAL: Their training is fair to good. Not great, just fair to good. It could be great but everything is provided to the bare minimum and only scripted emergencies/irregularities are trained. Only the test is trained and tested, but that is the way it is because to do otherwise would result longer training time or more failures, which slows down the training, resulting in more crew required to operate the airline. It's all money. So while some may think their airline training is good, just think about whether you're really confident that you'll follow the electronic checklist exactly, just as you're suppose to, for all the emergencies/irregularities without missing an important note or direction to reference another checklist. So now do you really think the training was so great?

Again, Al, all you've known in your entire professional flying career has been UAL and your GA work. Have you been to Flight Safety or Simuflite? Have you trained at 2 other major airlines (like I have)? Ever done a type rating ride in the airplane, in actual, circling to land at 3 am? You wouldn't know by your limited perspective just how well United Airlines trains pilots compared to other places. So, quit being so uncharitable about your former employer and their training department.

Really, I just think it's bitterness on your part. You're bitter that your ego couldn't find a Hindenburg-sized hangar to tuck into before all the bullsh-t came raining down upon our industry. You're bitter that you never got to fly with your son in a UAL cockpit. You're bitter that you didn't realize he wouldn't qualify for that coveted internship with UAL because you didn't know how those internships were doled out at the time.

You should feel comfy waking in the same bed every morning. Feel comfy when you strap on your motorcycle. Feel comfy when you give someone their Private Certificate.

But I don't know if you'll be able to ever feel comfy about some of the capriciousness of this industry. That's all it is. There's no stability anymore. Not here at UAL. Not at Fedex. Not at Southwest. Not flying a Pt. 91 Challenger. Hell, not even flying in the military.

It's up to you to find your own peace. Good luck on that. Good luck to all of us.

SCR

 

[pipe]

Also, as far as the military being "the easy way" - try this one on for size.

If you're in a military aircraft with a civil equivalent, many of us have taken an ATP/type ride in the airplane with a Fed on the jumpseat. Pulling engines and the whole works.

UF, I have done thousands of single engine circles, engine failures on takeoff, partial flap landings, etc. -- in an actual transport category jet. This is true of most al of us -- how many have you done?

You know - I wish I'd have thought about this when you were spouting off about keeping experience in the cockpit.

By the way, yes I have done acro. Yes, I have taught at every level on the civilian side. Yes, I have done flight exams. Etc, etc, etc.

You did it the hard way. By that do you mean it was hard to keep a straight face?

PIPE

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

UF is a proven liar. Why would anyone further believe anything he says?

There is a big difference between saying something that a person believes to be true and something that is a lie, or even an embellishment to be humorous or sarcastic on occasion.

Yes I predicted the 50-year old age-60 rule would change before the end of 2006. Well it changed just before the end of 2007. The rule did change just as I said it would, only my timing was off by 1-year out of 50. Does that make me a liar on that account? I would not think so.

Since I have never claimed (or implied) that I was a Vietnam vet, does that make me a liar about my military service just because others don’t like my prediction or opinions on the age-60 rule. I would not think so.

Because I go to a bar with friends and say that I was a pilot on the Goodyear blimp and my colleagues all claim they are part of my crew when we were shot down over a bad neighborhood, landing on the 5th hole of a golf course. Does that make me a liar? I would not think so because that was obviously such an outrageous story no one could believe that, and certainly not in a bar. Is that what you call a liar, and would you call all of my crew liars too? I would not think so.

Now when ANDY says things or even implies things that are untrue about me, which he as on some issues such as my military service, and most recently regarding my work on the IAC collegiate aerobatic program, who is the liar?

 

[PCL_128]

UF, I don't know if you're a liar or not, and I really don't care. You are, however, a selfish piece of sh--, and the pilots of United are lucky to be rid of your geriatric ass.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You think you made it into your airline career "the hard way"?

There are two ways of getting flight time: paying for it yourself or having someone else pay for it. Personally, I had nothing at all and paid for all my flight time with student loans and my own work. I have heard it said that signing on the dotted line and letting the taxpayers pay for it is an easy way too. That was my reference to the hard way vs. the easy way. Now today, the hard (civilian) way is even harder than ever before, and the points made of the difficult struggle of today's non-military pilots have been clearly pointed out by you. It is truly a daunting task to qualify for an airline position with a major carrier from a civilian background. Certainly today's military pilots have a demanding challenge too, even surviving from enlistment to then moving to the airlines can require luck. But the military pilot is one who has chosen that career to serve his/her country and should always be focused on that objective. So upon discharge, moving to the airlines is very easy if there are openings. That's why the military way is called the easy way, those pilots learned to fly for another reason than just becoming airline pilots, their primary career they will say is being a US military pilot for 12 to 20 or even 25 years. That is their job primarily. For many career military pilots, airline pilot is a secondary add-on career. So for them, becoming an airline pilot is an easy choice, just decide and go if their timing is right. Hit the “EASY” button.

Now if you agree that the civilian who chooses to pursue an airline job is a more daunting task than a military pilot choosing to make the same pursuit, then you and I agree. I do agree with you that my difficulty was far less than today's civilian pilot who has to go through many more hardships as you did. So there is really no argument as to who had a harder “row to hoe." Your task was more daunting than mine, and I'm sure there are others who have had an even more taunting task than you. And my point was that the Civilian way of going from one career as a professional whatever to airline pilot is the harder way to become an airline pilot than the military pilot who chooses to go from his career to airline pilot. I really don't think there is an argument here.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, you really are a monumental ass. Military aviation is the "easy way?" Wow. I feel sorry for the United pilots that had to share a cockpit with you.