United Airlines F/O makes a stand!

[Draginass]

Big cluebird . . . . they don't CARE!! Write all the letters you want. They've got their protected pensions, buyouts, and severances all lined up. I'm sure this letter was binned with laughter.

 

[habubuaza]

I also think that something dramatic is going to have to happen to correct this bludgeoning of the pilot profession. Forget ALPA. That union has destroyed it's own credibility since this all began. (Finally those ba$tards corrected my dues amount) anyway I think that somewhere somebody is going to have to walk out and bring the airline/airlines to a screeching halt. I mean if half of all pilots had a sick out, do you have any idea what that would do to commerce/economy for one day? It would gain worldwide attention. The problem is the pilot group is so fragmented... Over 60/ Under 60, Pro Alpa/Anti Alpa, PFT/No PFT, Operating in Bankruptcy/No Bankruptcy Protection, Regionals are good/Regionals are bad, mergers good/mergers bad..etc

There are actually pilots that agree with pensions being tossed out. There are pilots who actually agree with pay cuts and more. The problem is we've lost/sold out all leverage that we possibly could have had. When ALPA signed off on pension tossing, early retirements then rehire as contract pilots with other pilots on furlugh and started endorsing airline mergers, and all sorts of nonsense including signing off on most of the RJ replacement flying instead of lobbying and doing everything in their power to protect the integrity of our contracts and pensions we've already lost. I mean what the he!! is ALPA doing worrying about extending age 60 at a time like this? Can anyone tell me?


This guy writing this letter at least made public the sentiments many pilots have. Now management can't claim ignorance as to how many of the pilots feel. I think this guy has put UAL management on notice and it has freaked them out. Do you know why they pulled him off line and sent him for a psyche evaluation..? Because that's what the lawyers told them to do, they are scared to death of the public being aware of such pilot animosity and they are pre-empting possible PR issues in the future.

 

[Pilotbob3]

Got him pulled off a trip, and in this day and age, understandably.

"in this day and age, understandably"? what do you mean by that?

If I may use my moderator's ability to post within a thread, for clarity, since so many posts are after this one, I will answer your question here.

In this day and age, understandably means that if, in the remote instance that there was an accident, a very good case could be made by an attorney that this individual was, under the FARs, not in a proper emotional state to operate an aircraft within the letter or spirit of the law. While I agree with many of the statements within the letter. even the most casual of readers of it should get the correct impression that he is angry at UAL management, ergo, UAL.

If you don't think that the letter would be brought out as exhibit A as a possible cause for this particular pilot, no matter how competent or conscientious he may be, to have the focus or blame in some way placed on him, you are naiive. If that pilot were involved in an accident and it was proved that UAL knew that he was upset at the company, and they let him fly before ascertaining that he was mentally fit to fly from a 3rd party, they would be hit with punitive damages that would make your head swim.

While I like to call a spade a spade as much as the next guy and trust me, there aren't many people here who have taken it in the shorts more than I have, you've got to be realistic in not only your targets, but your actions and methods. It may feel good to kick your dog when you're angry at him, but what have you taught him?... as you're at the vet's office treating his broken ribs.

I hope this clarifies my statement to you.

UAL78

 

[Dodge]

"in this day and age, understandably"? what do you mean by that?

He means that one has to be careful of how critical one is toward their management. C.P.'s are always looking to fire another pilot. That's even better than furloughs.

Keep giving concessions, United. You're doing our profession a great service.

 

[PCL_128]

First, I'm not sure why he was taken off the line. The letter really isn't that bad. God forbid one of the worker bees should question the absolute authority of a manager or executive. Their all gods, just ask one.

Second, the age of these "higher beings" stepping on collective labor is drawing to an end. The time is coming when labor will take this fight out of the boardrooms and courtrooms to the street. An era will return when managers will refrain from such nefarious activities, not because of work stoppages or lawsuits, but because they possess raw fear. Their day of reckoning is coming.

FO Zogg's letter is merely venting. Eventually their won't be enough 'vents' and the pressure will cause an explosion.

We are a country of sheep, always doing what we are told, never having a say in the way things are run. Soon the soft wool coat will be cast aside and the teeth of the animal will become apparent. After all, you can only beat a dog so much before he bites you.

It happened here and in other parts of the world before, it CAN happen here again. The proud history of the organized labor movement demands it.

A bottle of Jim Beam and a copy of the Communist Manifesto; bad combination.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What an idiot. Ranting and Raving gets you nowhere and the childless insults and name calling simply gives you no credibility. There is a much more diplomatic and professional way to get your point across and FO Zogg is a Fool for lowering himself to such a classless level.

It makes all of us look like idiots.....

 

[drag]

The only thing wrong with the letter was using "Sincerely" at the end. Perhaps "Utterely Disapointed" or "Disgustingly Yours" would suffice. By the way Rez, the only one looking like idiots are those that are newhires at the Regionals or any member of the RJDC.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

First of all the name is real and he is an ATP. I would be mad too if I was typed in nearly every type of aircraft United flies and yet I was bumped back to the right seat and stomped down to baggage handler pay.

I here you all saying he was wrong, but what did he have to lose? When is the violence going to start?

hey man- don't be posting that stuff here- even if you did sanitize it- ok?

 

[Ty Webb]

I think the guy was spot on, and those of you castigating him need to grow a spine and a brain. . . . sorry, UAL78.

 

[TIS]

"in this day and age, understandably"? what do you mean by that?

Without presuming to speak out of turn, I would say that UAL78 (the person you've quoted), as an employee of the airline in question, and one of the airlines DIRECTLY affected by the hijackings of 9/11, is saying, that at a bare minimum, someone that P.O.'d has no business in the cockpit. They're just a bit too distracted to be operating Boeing brand heavy machinery.

I think if this letter really was transmitted to UAL management, then FO Zogg has made his own bed. You know, as the Verbal Advantage commercial says, "People judge you by the words you use." Implicit within that is that no one can judge you by the words you DON'T use. Mr. Zogg is finding out what others think of what he said. If he doesn't like it, perhaps he should have thought out the ramifications a little better BEFORE he hit the "send" button.

TIS

 

[Purpledog]

This raping of the pilot profession will stop only when pilots refuse to fly jets for peanuts because its "Jet Time". I know that's easy to say for someone gainfully employed by a major who isn't hemorraging money, but it's a bitter pill. You want jet time, go serve your country and when you get out demand to be paid as a professional with 10+ years of experience. Shame on pilot groups for allowing this to occur under their noses. Good on this FO for having a set, unfortunately his drive could probably been more useful in another format. No easy answers other than unity across the board. Hopefully Brown & Purple will set the bar high and one pilot group at a 'major' will refuse their B scale to fly the small jet (not bashing, just nudging).

 

[Capt. JD]

Why?

Is it because being at the regionals is a joke as far as pay goes? What RJDC?

By the way Rez, the only one looking like idiots are those that are newhires at the Regionals or any member of the RJDC.

 

[Morning Wood]

Boy...talk about taking one for the team....

 

[:-)]

This raping of the pilot profession will stop only when pilots refuse to fly jets for peanuts because its "Jet Time". I know that's easy to say for someone gainfully employed by a major who isn't hemorraging money, but it's a bitter pill. You want jet time, go serve your country and when you get out demand to be paid as a professional with 10+ years of experience. Shame on pilot groups for allowing this to occur under their noses. Good on this FO for having a set, unfortunately his drive could probably been more useful in another format. No easy answers other than unity across the board. Hopefully Brown & Purple will set the bar high and one pilot group at a 'major' will refuse their B scale to fly the small jet (not bashing, just nudging).

[sarcasm]OK, now I see the problem. [/sarcasm]

There are just tooooo many civilian wannabees. Those nasty civilians should get out of the business so that the ten year military professional can continue slotting straight into jobs with "professional" pay.

Purpledog, your post may be the most blatant example of military arrogance this forum has seen in a long time. Do you really think that only an ex military pilot should have the right to access an aviation career?

Does your call for "unity accross the board" include any civilians? If so, how could you expect unity from a group that you obviously disrespect?

In closing, I've spent my time working at career builder jobs. I've sat in the schoolhouse with almost as many retired/ex military pilots as civilians. Are you lumping these gentlemen (who flew everything from A10's to B1's to F15's to C130's) in with those stupid "I just want jet time" civilians? For all you know, I could be one of them. What would you have the ex-Hornet pilot to do if he couldn't get on with AA? Should he just take a job at Home Depot? Your logic would seem to indicate that you believe so.

Sorry bro, but the problem with this career isn't as related to cheap labor as some would like to believe. Yes, if we could somehow limit entrants into the airline pilot labor pool, we could increase wages, but there is no way to accomplish said limit unless you are willing to advocate communism/central control. Somehow, I doubt that many of your military brothers would be willing to embrace communism in order to guarantee a high wage to a few of their buddies.

 

[V1andgo]

So, what else is new. Management F----up, but you and I have to deal with the mess.
Not much we can do. Managment is not going away in shame because we have no respect form them. Matter of fact, they do not have any respect for use either.
The only answer is in a union with balls.
We have no choice but to renew and changes the operation of our Unions. This may require some radical changes in the ways unions do business. I believe we need a national union that represents all Pilots under one basic agreement, leading to national unity among all pilots. Without national unity, managment will run us out of our jobs, wages, and pensions. Playing one group of pilots against the other. We need a national seniority list, a minimum wage for all union pilots, a national CBA, ..etc.
Currently, Our Unions are still operation in the mode of a regulated industry, with no sign to modernize in sight. But then again, you and I are the union. We cannot directly change management, but we can change the union. With a renewed and stong union comes power, influence, and the respect we need to move on. This maybe our last chance in saving the profession from the total abyss. God I hope we still have the time.

 

[AA717driver]

You guys act like this hasn't happened before. Over 20 years ago, the Continental pilots had their retirements stolen. Lorenzo got away with it.

Nineteen years ago, the TWA pilots had their retirements stolen and Icahn got away with it. Letters like Zogg wrote have been written by the hundreds at TWA and mailed to Icahn and AA management. No one got fired. Nothing got changed.

While CAL, TWA, PanAm and Eastern were being dismantled by the Wall Streeters, no one at AA, UA, USAir or Delta gave a $h!t. Now that it's happening to them, it's suddenly a national crisis.

Get over it, get on with your life and don't let it kill you or destroy your family.TC

 

[BFL370]

First, I'm not sure why he was taken off the line. The letter really isn't that bad. God forbid one of the worker bees should question the absolute authority of a manager or executive. Their all gods, just ask one.

Second, the age of these "higher beings" stepping on collective labor is drawing to an end. The time is coming when labor will take this fight out of the boardrooms and courtrooms to the street. An era will return when managers will refrain from such nefarious activities, not because of work stoppages or lawsuits, but because they possess raw fear. Their day of reckoning is coming.

FO Zogg's letter is merely venting. Eventually their won't be enough 'vents' and the pressure will cause an explosion.

We are a country of sheep, always doing what we are told, never having a say in the way things are run. Soon the soft wool coat will be cast aside and the teeth of the animal will become apparent. After all, you can only beat a dog so much before he bites you.

It happened here and in other parts of the world before, it CAN happen here again. The proud history of the organized labor movement demands it.

I think you are wrong, not because it is not right or what should happen. But that most of the posts here think he was wrong to lash out at those twerps who have nearly destroyed a once great airline. The ability to find the strength to pull together and stop this BS doesn't exist. Just read the above post. I for one feel that the unity of ALPA or what ever group you belong to is dead. It saddens me greatly.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Is it because being at the regionals is a joke as far as pay goes? What RJDC?

Drag's generalizations show his lack of intelligence and/or the fact that he likes to run around in drag..................................


Open the book before you judge it dude.........., dont just look at the pictures!

 

[pilotyip]

In defense of Management

This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason than it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last couple years had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. AA tried to take seats out of the airplanes, to attract people with more room, did not work. UAL and USAirways have used BK in an attempt to start with a clean slate, it is probably not going to work. ATA tried getting a fleet of new fuel-efficient airplanes, which did not work. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw another article in ATW in the past couple years that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[radarlove]

PilotYip, I liked your essay. It's easy to make the assumption that all airline management are chumps, but if you step back and look hard, it's pretty rare to find huge strategic blunders. Ok, UAL's Avolar and purchase of USAir, but both of those were arguable, UAL was losing lots of their high-paying folks to biz jets .

Speaking of UAL, if you actually look at their numbers from their SEC filings, their revenue went down FORTY PERCENT after 9/11. Their costs didn't go up, their revenue plummeted. There isn't an asset-intensive corporation in the word that can survive a forty percent reduction in revenue in two years and survive in its current form. Their management may look to be making no headway, but perhaps that's because there is no solution to losing forty percent of the cash coming in. I like to think that most airline management is not insane, they see the same things you and I see, but in some cases, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place where treading water might be the only answer until the income statement rights itself.

Then again, I think Independance Air might have some irrational folks at the helm