United Airlines F/O makes a stand!

[Purpledog]

This raping of the pilot profession will stop only when pilots refuse to fly jets for peanuts because its "Jet Time". I know that's easy to say for someone gainfully employed by a major who isn't hemorraging money, but it's a bitter pill. You want jet time, go serve your country and when you get out demand to be paid as a professional with 10+ years of experience. Shame on pilot groups for allowing this to occur under their noses. Good on this FO for having a set, unfortunately his drive could probably been more useful in another format. No easy answers other than unity across the board. Hopefully Brown & Purple will set the bar high and one pilot group at a 'major' will refuse their B scale to fly the small jet (not bashing, just nudging).

 

[Capt. JD]

Why?

Is it because being at the regionals is a joke as far as pay goes? What RJDC?

By the way Rez, the only one looking like idiots are those that are newhires at the Regionals or any member of the RJDC.

 

[Morning Wood]

Boy...talk about taking one for the team....

 

[:-)]

This raping of the pilot profession will stop only when pilots refuse to fly jets for peanuts because its "Jet Time". I know that's easy to say for someone gainfully employed by a major who isn't hemorraging money, but it's a bitter pill. You want jet time, go serve your country and when you get out demand to be paid as a professional with 10+ years of experience. Shame on pilot groups for allowing this to occur under their noses. Good on this FO for having a set, unfortunately his drive could probably been more useful in another format. No easy answers other than unity across the board. Hopefully Brown & Purple will set the bar high and one pilot group at a 'major' will refuse their B scale to fly the small jet (not bashing, just nudging).

[sarcasm]OK, now I see the problem. [/sarcasm]

There are just tooooo many civilian wannabees. Those nasty civilians should get out of the business so that the ten year military professional can continue slotting straight into jobs with "professional" pay.

Purpledog, your post may be the most blatant example of military arrogance this forum has seen in a long time. Do you really think that only an ex military pilot should have the right to access an aviation career?

Does your call for "unity accross the board" include any civilians? If so, how could you expect unity from a group that you obviously disrespect?

In closing, I've spent my time working at career builder jobs. I've sat in the schoolhouse with almost as many retired/ex military pilots as civilians. Are you lumping these gentlemen (who flew everything from A10's to B1's to F15's to C130's) in with those stupid "I just want jet time" civilians? For all you know, I could be one of them. What would you have the ex-Hornet pilot to do if he couldn't get on with AA? Should he just take a job at Home Depot? Your logic would seem to indicate that you believe so.

Sorry bro, but the problem with this career isn't as related to cheap labor as some would like to believe. Yes, if we could somehow limit entrants into the airline pilot labor pool, we could increase wages, but there is no way to accomplish said limit unless you are willing to advocate communism/central control. Somehow, I doubt that many of your military brothers would be willing to embrace communism in order to guarantee a high wage to a few of their buddies.

 

[V1andgo]

So, what else is new. Management F----up, but you and I have to deal with the mess.
Not much we can do. Managment is not going away in shame because we have no respect form them. Matter of fact, they do not have any respect for use either.
The only answer is in a union with balls.
We have no choice but to renew and changes the operation of our Unions. This may require some radical changes in the ways unions do business. I believe we need a national union that represents all Pilots under one basic agreement, leading to national unity among all pilots. Without national unity, managment will run us out of our jobs, wages, and pensions. Playing one group of pilots against the other. We need a national seniority list, a minimum wage for all union pilots, a national CBA, ..etc.
Currently, Our Unions are still operation in the mode of a regulated industry, with no sign to modernize in sight. But then again, you and I are the union. We cannot directly change management, but we can change the union. With a renewed and stong union comes power, influence, and the respect we need to move on. This maybe our last chance in saving the profession from the total abyss. God I hope we still have the time.

 

[AA717driver]

You guys act like this hasn't happened before. Over 20 years ago, the Continental pilots had their retirements stolen. Lorenzo got away with it.

Nineteen years ago, the TWA pilots had their retirements stolen and Icahn got away with it. Letters like Zogg wrote have been written by the hundreds at TWA and mailed to Icahn and AA management. No one got fired. Nothing got changed.

While CAL, TWA, PanAm and Eastern were being dismantled by the Wall Streeters, no one at AA, UA, USAir or Delta gave a $h!t. Now that it's happening to them, it's suddenly a national crisis.

Get over it, get on with your life and don't let it kill you or destroy your family.TC

 

[BFL370]

First, I'm not sure why he was taken off the line. The letter really isn't that bad. God forbid one of the worker bees should question the absolute authority of a manager or executive. Their all gods, just ask one.

Second, the age of these "higher beings" stepping on collective labor is drawing to an end. The time is coming when labor will take this fight out of the boardrooms and courtrooms to the street. An era will return when managers will refrain from such nefarious activities, not because of work stoppages or lawsuits, but because they possess raw fear. Their day of reckoning is coming.

FO Zogg's letter is merely venting. Eventually their won't be enough 'vents' and the pressure will cause an explosion.

We are a country of sheep, always doing what we are told, never having a say in the way things are run. Soon the soft wool coat will be cast aside and the teeth of the animal will become apparent. After all, you can only beat a dog so much before he bites you.

It happened here and in other parts of the world before, it CAN happen here again. The proud history of the organized labor movement demands it.

I think you are wrong, not because it is not right or what should happen. But that most of the posts here think he was wrong to lash out at those twerps who have nearly destroyed a once great airline. The ability to find the strength to pull together and stop this BS doesn't exist. Just read the above post. I for one feel that the unity of ALPA or what ever group you belong to is dead. It saddens me greatly.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Is it because being at the regionals is a joke as far as pay goes? What RJDC?

Drag's generalizations show his lack of intelligence and/or the fact that he likes to run around in drag..................................


Open the book before you judge it dude.........., dont just look at the pictures!

 

[pilotyip]

In defense of Management

This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason than it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last couple years had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. AA tried to take seats out of the airplanes, to attract people with more room, did not work. UAL and USAirways have used BK in an attempt to start with a clean slate, it is probably not going to work. ATA tried getting a fleet of new fuel-efficient airplanes, which did not work. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw another article in ATW in the past couple years that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[radarlove]

PilotYip, I liked your essay. It's easy to make the assumption that all airline management are chumps, but if you step back and look hard, it's pretty rare to find huge strategic blunders. Ok, UAL's Avolar and purchase of USAir, but both of those were arguable, UAL was losing lots of their high-paying folks to biz jets .

Speaking of UAL, if you actually look at their numbers from their SEC filings, their revenue went down FORTY PERCENT after 9/11. Their costs didn't go up, their revenue plummeted. There isn't an asset-intensive corporation in the word that can survive a forty percent reduction in revenue in two years and survive in its current form. Their management may look to be making no headway, but perhaps that's because there is no solution to losing forty percent of the cash coming in. I like to think that most airline management is not insane, they see the same things you and I see, but in some cases, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place where treading water might be the only answer until the income statement rights itself.

Then again, I think Independance Air might have some irrational folks at the helm

 

[IB6 UB9]

This raping of the pilot profession will stop only when pilots refuse to fly jets for peanuts because its "Jet Time". I know that's easy to say for someone gainfully employed by a major who isn't hemorraging money, but it's a bitter pill. You want jet time, go serve your country and when you get out demand to be paid as a professional with 10+ years of experience. Shame on pilot groups for allowing this to occur under their noses. Good on this FO for having a set, unfortunately his drive could probably been more useful in another format. No easy answers other than unity across the board. Hopefully Brown & Purple will set the bar high and one pilot group at a 'major' will refuse their B scale to fly the small jet (not bashing, just nudging).

Here is another problem in our industry...idiots like this.

 

[RickKC-135]

Why is it when the UAL pilots agreed to a pay raise that was in no way sustainable and ultimately was going to drive the company into bankruptcy they were genius’s. Now it's all the managements fault.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey, Rick this is a pilot board, do not deal in reality.

 

[Inconceivable]

Reading that letter made me think of Travis Bickle.....

 

[Sticky]

Is it because being at the regionals is a joke as far as pay goes? What RJDC?

Come on Joe, you know why the regionals are a joke. It's not just because of the money. Anyone can answer this question for themselves. All you have to do is think of where you'll be in 10 years if you get hired tomorrow. Would you be happy at 34 years old in that position, Joe? What about home ownership? What about saving for retirement? Can you do that on a fifth year FO pay, or even third year CAP?


Mike

 

[TonyC]

Today, 15:26 (news article) UPS, pilots wary as mediation set to end

V1andgo, stop dealing in reality, this a pilot board.

Today, 15:30 Buffett Makes $5.1B Bid in Power Industry

Pubs, there you go dealing in reality again, this is a pilot board

Today, 15:32 United Airlines F/O makes a stand!

Hey, Rick this is a pilot board, do not deal in reality.

Two things occur to me:


1) Broken record


2) Someone learned a new phrase today











Hey, at least it's not an anti-college rant.




.

 

[Capt. JD]

Whats up!

Hey Mike, are you in PNE right now? How's Brian doing? It's a joke I know, but what other option does a piston pilot like me have to get to fly jets? Corporate has very high requirements, Fracs too, what else is there? I refuse to do anything that will hurt this industry, fvcking PFTers... The regional are the only place where you can get in with 0 turbine time.... We have had this talk before & thanks for the help! I know you have a good gig that will be hard to leave because of the pay cut & instability. So what should my next move be?

Come on Joe, you know why the regionals are a joke. It's not just because of the money. Anyone can answer this question for themselves. All you have to do is think of where you'll be in 10 years if you get hired tomorrow. Would you be happy at 34 years old in that position, Joe? What about home ownership? What about saving for retirement? Can you do that on a fifth year FO pay, or even third year CAP? Mike

 

[ivauir]

So what should my next move be?

Get your real estate ticket and never look back ....

 

[FlierDude]

You guys act like this hasn't happened before. Over 20 years ago, the Continental pilots had their retirements stolen. Lorenzo got away with it.

Nineteen years ago, the TWA pilots had their retirements stolen and Icahn got away with it.

AA717Driver, you hit it on the head.

The pillaging of companies in the US has been going on for decades. The airlines are only one very visible example. As long as we allow the laws to change to continually favor the corporate few, this will go on.

The CEO has little control over the airline,

pilotyip, I respectfully and heartily disagree. If he's worth his pay, the CEO isn't just a lame-duck figurehead. He/she has tremendous control. Granted, there are factors at work outside his domain, but a bright, dynamic leader is paid those tremendous dollars to put in place the means to help the company. What we're seeing instead is copycat reactions by uninspired, complacent dolts who are only concerned with keeping the ship aloft just long enough to bail out with their parachute intact.

The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries.

Disingenuous. That's comparing 17 to a cast of thousands, plus management's base pay is a small fraction of the total comp package (bonus/stock/etc.). Better to compare toe-to-toe, or use what many compensation analysts and consultants recommend; the top management's salaries should be a factor no greater than 50/100/X? -times the lowest-paid or a median employee's salary. I don't see where these huge comp packages are making a difference, so maybe they should take their lumps first (Lose the comps!) before they go raiding pilot/mech/FA retirements. That way, the worker bees will feel the pain is being shared upstairs.

And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

I'm sure they all want to be prosperous but 9/11, coupled with complacency, has hurt the airlines the most IMO. Cutting away the fat can help the company, but cutting away the muscle as they are solves nothing. Who says chasing the cheap seats is the answer? The present management does, and look where it's gotten the industry.

I don't know, maybe they should just re-regulate the whole thing...

.

 

[Purpledog]

There are just tooooo many civilian wannabees. Those nasty civilians should get out of the business so that the ten year military professional can continue slotting straight into jobs with "professional" pay.

Purpledog, your post may be the most blatant example of military arrogance this forum has seen in a long time. Do you really think that only an ex military pilot should have the right to access an aviation career?

Does your call for "unity accross the board" include any civilians? If so, how could you expect unity from a group that you obviously disrespect?

In closing, I've spent my time working at career builder jobs. I've sat in the schoolhouse with almost as many retired/ex military pilots as civilians. Are you lumping these gentlemen (who flew everything from A10's to B1's to F15's to C130's) in with those stupid "I just want jet time" civilians? For all you know, I could be one of them. What would you have the ex-Hornet pilot to do if he couldn't get on with AA? Should he just take a job at Home Depot? Your logic would seem to indicate that you believe so.

Sorry bro, but the problem with this career isn't as related to cheap labor as some would like to believe. Yes, if we could somehow limit entrants into the airline pilot labor pool, we could increase wages, but there is no way to accomplish said limit unless you are willing to advocate communism/central control. Somehow, I doubt that many of your military brothers would be willing to embrace communism in order to guarantee a high wage to a few of their buddies.

Please, lose the drama, mama. I was/am a civ pilot. I have busted my ass teaching in 150's for peanuts for flight time as well. In no way do I have any contempt for pilots with civ background only. I would be just as disappointed in a former mil pilot flying equipment that should be paid at a much higher rate. What's next on the horizon? 767's at commuter pay? Laugh now but someone is figuring out a business plan for that, guaranteed.
Like I said in my post. There are no easy answers. I realize the ex-Hornet guy will have to take a job for less than he should just as the ex- Dash 8 guy would. To say that cheap labor isn't a problem with our industry is just foolish and you have little concept of supply and demand economics. If there is someone that is willing to fly that 73/A3XX etc for $20 hr, and you want $120, guess who they will steer their focus towards. This is precisely why there is a giant trade imbalance with China. Guess why most of our "American" brands are made in China, because there is someone over there happy to do the work of American workers for pennies on their salary.
I'm sorry if you mistook my intent although I realize apologies have no place on this flame board. Let's not turn this into another foolish Mil vs Civ post.

Former 150,BE95,BE76 Driver

 

[:-)]

Please, lose the drama, mama.

Calvin IS drama, with apologies to TNT.

I was/am a civ pilot. I have busted my ass teaching in 150's for peanuts for flight time as well. In no way do I have any contempt for pilots with civ background only.

Here's what you wrote, "This raping of the pilot profession will stop only when pilots refuse to fly jets for peanuts because its "Jet Time". I know that's easy to say for someone gainfully employed by a major who isn't hemorraging money, but it's a bitter pill. You want jet time, go serve your country and when you get out demand to be paid as a professional with 10+ years of experience.". OK, I was overly dramatic, which in no way changes the obvious bias you have toward the military option towards an airline pilot career. You may not have contempt, but you certainly don't have any respect.

I would be just as disappointed in a former mil pilot flying equipment that should be paid at a much higher rate.

Yet you only trashed the civilians who work for less. I pointed out that I personally know of many ex-mil aviators who do work for less, and the best you can come up with is, "I would be". This ain't about would be (future), it's happenin now (present).

Like I said in my post. There are no easy answers. I realize the ex-Hornet guy will have to take a job for less than he should just as the ex- Dash 8 guy would.

Which doesn't jibe with the previous quote

To say that cheap labor isn't a problem with our industry is just foolish and you have little concept of supply and demand economics.

You have absolutely no knowledge of my concepts of economics. Here's what I said, "Sorry bro, but the problem with this career isn't as related to cheap labor as some would like to believe." Please learn to read; I didn't say that cheap labor was not a problem.

If there is someone that is willing to fly that 73/A3XX etc for $20 hr, and you want $120, guess who they will steer their focus towards.

Just as you most likely buy auto fuel at the cheaper of two available gas stations.

This is precisely why there is a giant trade imbalance with China. Guess why most of our "American" brands are made in China, because there is someone over there happy to do the work of American workers for pennies on their salary.

The trade imbalance is more related to American governmental stupidity than anything else. BTW, we have both Dems and Repubs to blame.

I'm sorry if you mistook my intent although I realize apologies have no place on this flame board. Let's not turn this into another foolish Mil vs Civ post.

Former 150,BE95,BE76 Driver

I may have mistaken your intent, but I didn't mistake your plain words. It woud appear that you maybe didn't realize what those words were actually saying.

We most likely agree on more than you think, and you are correct in that this is not Mil vs Civ. It is my common man view against your elitist view. I'm sorry, but your statement about joining the military if one wants to prepare for an airline job is elitist.

Calvin

 

[Purpledog]

Please, enough drivel! I have to go do some of my 'elitist' duties, like preflight and serve coffee. By the way there is a 10% discount this weekend at Lowes for all Elitists, reserve and active,showing a valid ID. Giddyup! Sorry for the thread hijack.

Have a nice Memorial weekend honoring all those who gave their lives for our freedom.

 

[IndyGTP]

You guys realize that if 1,000 pilots forwarded this to management, they would get the idea. But instead, you spineless call yourself professionals sit back and watch management take the next round of pay and bennies. And when your done you bend over and ask Mr Tilton for more.

Go ahead watch your FO brother burn. It's great to know you work with a bunch of cowards.

But then again don't listen to the maintenance guy... I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Hpilot]

By and large airline upper management could care less about what a pilot thinks. The only time I have heard of a pilot getting back at management was a guy that quite aviation and went back to daddy. Daddy owned a rather large corporation and sat on several boards. The ex-pilot had the enjoyment of having his ex-CEO physically removed from a country club. For most of us though it's pretty much sit down and shut up.

 

[:-)]

Please, enough drivel! I have to go do some of my 'elitist' duties, like preflight and serve coffee. By the way there is a 10% discount this weekend at Lowes for all Elitists, reserve and active,showing a valid ID. Giddyup! Sorry for the thread hijack.

Have a nice Memorial weekend honoring all those who gave their lives for our freedom.

You should be sorry. The thread was about some poor FO who got fed up, and you took the opportunity to blame the industries ills on some poor dudes who didn't have the good fortune of Uncle Sam paying for their jet time. Rest assured, that the next time I sit on a hiring board, I'll remember your attitude.

Calvin

Yes, you have our thanks for your service to the country, but it don't entitle you to look down on other citizens.

 

[IB6 UB9]

You should be sorry. The thread was about some poor FO who got fed up, and you took the opportunity to blame the industries ills on some poor dudes who didn't have the good fortune of Uncle Sam paying for their jet time. Rest assured, that the next time I sit on a hiring board, I'll remember your attitude.

Calvin

Yes, you have our thanks for your service to the country, but it don't entitle you to look down on other citizens.

Every company has an idiot like this, try not to let it ruin your weekend. Most of us just sit in crew rooms across the country and laugh at guys like Purpledog. What a tool.

 

[banned username 1]

I agree with you IndyGTP, you don't know what you're talking about. You don't think that they don't know that 6000 pilots feel the same way? As Tony Soprano likes to say, "whaddaya gonna do?"

He's not going to be left to hang out to dry. Check for testosterone poisoning. All that beating your chest is going to do is give you a sore chest. You think it's a simple solution to a complex problem. Oh, I guess it is- you'd just flip them off and burn the place to the ground.That'll make 60,000 of us feel about as good as Zogg felt when he hit the send button. That'll show 'em once and for all! Eastern tried that tactic a little bit. Remember them don't you?

But wait! I have an idea. Why don't we just stop going to work at UAL and sacrifice what jobs and earnings we have left? That way, we can let the rest of you have a better career. Let's just pack it in. Hey, why not? You'd do the same for me, right, my band of brothers?

I'll drop it in the suggestion box in ops.

 

[Big Duke Six]

UAL78 - so, let me guess, you have NEVER supported a strike at someone else's company? Gimme a break....

I understand. It's hard to see the big picture when it's your own job on the line.

Edit: I'd also add that it's not the numbers that are important in trying to get mgmt to take parallel cuts with labor. We all know the numbers may be inconsequential, but the principle is straight off page 1 in the Leadership book we all get in life. "Lead by example".

Imagine the goodwill mgmt would have earned had personal paycuts been their first act, rather than go after labor's wallets. They would be way ahead of where they are today. It would work on me if I was there.

 

[Mugs]

Why is it when the UAL pilots agreed to a pay raise that was in no way sustainable and ultimately was going to drive the company into bankruptcy they were genius’s. Now it's all the managements fault.

Who knew then it was heading towards bankruptcy? What everyone did know is that they were ticked off by management's approach to the negotiations even after all the ESOP give backs. Then, everyone was infuriated by the USair merger announcement (note how pleased the America West guys are now). UAL Management tossed gas on a fire that they started. Had they simply concluded the contracts before announcing the USair deal, they would have had the contracts signed for much less. Instead, they created such havoc that they had to sign for much more just to put their own fires out. Besideds Rick, if your job is to be eliminated at worst or career progression stagnated at best by a merger, would you not be asking for more especially in the environment just described?

One more footnote Rick since you are so poorly informed about what you have chosen to comment on. The spike in the pay rates back then didn't even start at UAL. Delta got the ball rolling with the rates they negotiated for the 777 when it came on the property over there. Once Delta signed on to those rates, they were bound to move on through the industry. Unfortunately, you didn't come around back then and point out how and why such rates were going to be unsustainable.

 

[WhiteCloud]

But wait! I have an idea. Why don't we just stop going to work at UAL and sacrifice what jobs and earnings we have left? That way, we can let the rest of you have a better career. Let's just pack it in. Hey, why not? You'd do the same for me, right, my band of brothers?

That sounds a lot like the stuff ALPA puts out when they go around threatening unemployed pilots to not take certain jobs that go against ALPA's grain. Maybe it's time you guys took a hit in the name of saving the profession.