United 93 Movie

[vance]

Conspiracy Theorists

Please step away from the crackpipe and get back to the grassy knoll in downtown Dallas. Seriously though, I know all your dumba$$ angles and if you think that's the only way Bush could invade Iraq and Cheney could get his Halliburton stock to go up then you must think Iran and North Korea are tourism "hot spots." Please go there.

We live in a wicked world and although I wish we weren't the "police force," the fact is we still have the Constitution and freedom to be idiots. Check your history books. We've made some mistakes, but have been pretty right in most of our conflicts.


Now back to our regularly scheduled thread!

Vance

 

[Big Beer Belly]

The only conspiracy theory I see as plausible would be a bomb going off and damaging the plane or a high speed structural failure/loss of control. I don't see an AIM-9 as part of the equation.


I don't have any 757 experience, but at 5000 feet how fast could you fly that thing without losing it? Is it possible to Mach Tuck a 757 that low to the ground? That kept bouncing around in my head...

Interesting thought, but I don't believe so.

Mach at 5000 feet standard day is approx. 748 mph (650 knots). Max design limit speed for a 757 at 5000 feet is approx 350 KIAS. Inflight breakup would occur well before reaching/approaching Mach.

I do recall reading the first 767 hit the tower at barber pole (approx 350 knots), but the second jet (flown by Atta I believe) hit the second tower at approx 450 knots (calculated by radar plots). Boeing engineers had not previously thought that possible. Their data indicated structural failure (wings would separate) prior to achieving that speed. FWIW.

BBB

 

[CCDiscoB]

I am not a conspiricy theorist, but I believe UAL 93 was shot down by the US government.

As someone who flew that day, and attended many 9/11 debriefs, I can tell you UAL was not shot down. I get asked that question often.

The facts are:
Pre-9/11 alert aircraft were loaded with a hot gun only. The military aircraft that were on training flights, and were diverted to assist on that day certainly didn't have anything loaded.

The F-16 that was enroute to UAL 93 was nowhere near it (as was stated before). How far away do you think a US missile can be fired and still hit it's target? I can tell you that had the F-16 been armed with a missile, it was not in range.

The F-16 (block-30) radar could not have "sorted" the "target" without asking someone if he had the correct contact, never mind even seeing him out at 100 miles.

Had a missile hit the aircraft, there would have been some indication on the CVR and FDR, and the phone calls that orginated from the flight.

Actually, wasn't the tail found about 5 miles away from the main crash site with a trail of debris?

This surprises you? If an Airbus tail can sheer-off on take-off due to wake turb, do you think any tail would stand up to a near vertical plunge?

...the military did not know about United 93 before it crashed

That's not true, we did know. In fact we knew about it before CNN started talking about the flight.

 

[tubelcane]

Just saw the movie, whew where do you start? I too thought it was very well done, the last 15 minutes were very tough to watch. I was the last one to leave the theater trying to take it all in. Were't many people there at a 12:45 Monday afternoon showing. I really hope more people will see it.
There were very frustrating elements, the confusion between the FAA and military come to mind several times. The lackadazical cockpit entry procedures before 9-11. What were we thinking? And the piece of crap pax. saying they just want money, and they'll let us go. Then he tried to warn the hijackers of the oncoming assault. I didn't know one of the pax was a gen. aviation pilot. Too bad they couldn't get control for him to try and land somewhere, don't know how successful he'd have been. They did wait too long and may have been able to get the cockpit back if they'd have done something sooner. But how can you second guess what they did. Who would have known, if any of us were onboard would we have been able to do any better, nobody knows. Can you tell athe adrenaline is still pumping in me?
Very glad I saw it, hope it makes a bunch of money and they make more movies about that day. Sadly, too many have forgotten.
Melon I think you are a tool, but nice try.

 

[ABXbooger]

Regardless of your views of the movie, the important thing is that we, as a nation, have a way of forgetting or moving on.

We should never forget that day and those that followed...

If this movie allows us to reopen the wounds and feel again the horrible pain of that day, it is good- as long as that pain is directed to results.

I have not seen the movie, and initially I did not want to see it. But as I thought about it more, I am going to see the movie. To remind myself what our country had done to it and to personnaly never allow myself to forget, ever.

 

[Osmosis]

First of all, in my opinion, this was a great movie and a better reminder. We should do the best we can to make sure this never happens again under our watch.

For those conspiracy theorists, I do have a bit of info on 93. A good friend of mine is an federal agent out of Pittsburgh. He described the wreckage he saw as one of the first people to the scene, after crash crews. Some of the things were quite disturbing, and documented in the movie (Picture of the Capitol, placement of bodies in the plane, mini Koran found with a terrorist, etc.) As an ex safety investigator and how the wreckage was described to me, 93 was not shot down IMHO. The plane wreckage was all at the crash site, but in a very small area and hole. There was not alot of wreckage spread out, although they did find items from the plane and passengers in the woodline next to the crash(100 yards). From what I know from the tapes found, the terrorists elected to put the plane down, and compounded to that, was the fact they were close to the ground, at a high rate of speed, and not flying exactly straight and level. Also, according to the tapes, the passengers may have got control of the yoke, but it was too late to recover the plane.

Anyway, I think the movie was well made and very worth seeing. I know it reminded me alot of the hurt after 9/11, and that under my watch ... never again!

 

[Melon]

Tubelcane, I thought of all the responses I could give you but none of them are worth it to stoop to a personal attack.

I guess everyone with a differing opinion than yours is a tool? I think it is important to question the government from time to time...I don't trust everything I see on Faux News, do you? Maybe it was shot down, maybe not. The truth is we will never know.

As for having any reason why I should believe your thoery it wasn't shot down, you provided no evidence like a few others on this thread have. I am more inclined to believe them than I am you. Nice try though.

 

[tubelcane]

Melon,

I didn't think I had to give any more the others did such a good job. I don't think I ever said it was or wasn't shot down. I was commenting on the movie like the thread was intended to be. But your'e obviously trying to hijack the thread so Ill bite.
You don't trust the government so it must have been shot down, is that your whole arguement, nah don't think so. Do you really think the gov/mil could have kept that or 800 a secret? But youre not into conspiracies? So why did you bring 800 up? Please do you have any more to enlighten us about maybe the grassy knoll or the moon landing?
If you don't want to go see the movie don't. I did and was happy I did. I think everyone should, but probably won't. Im sorry I got a little fired up over this but I guess you touched a nerve.

 

[beytzim]

You guys say Never Again, great! Yet, you probably support our current politicians (elephants and a$$es) who have done NOTHING to get us off foreign oil. They suggest drilling ANWAR, or give us a $100 rebate, or better yet, tax Exxon. What a joke!

This problem has allowed the enemy, led by religious fanatics no different than Al Queda, to acquire nuclear weapons with impunity. Yes, Iran is the enemy, period. We have to sit by (because of our Iraq debacle) as the UN plays games with Iran as its secretly constructing THOUSANDS of centrifuges to enrich uranium! They will give nuclear weapons to Al Queda or any other anti-US group in a New York second! (unless, of course, they can send some ICBM's to the US themselves). 9/11 will pail in comparison!


Alas, don't worry America, Israel has your back, again. (i.e. Iraq '82)

 

[Osmosis]

You guys say Never Again, great! Yet, you probably support our current politicians (elephants and a$$es) who have done NOTHING to get us off foreign oil. They suggest drilling ANWAR, or give us a $100 rebate, or better yet, tax Exxon. What a joke!

"Never Again" refers to the fact that under my watch, no terrorist is going to take control of my cockpit.

 

[Melon]

Whatever Dude, have a good night. I am done on this one. I was not trying to hijack the thread BTW. I think it's relevent conversation.

Glad you liked the "movie".

 

[Citrus531]

Great movie! Very intense especially the takeover which was hard to view for me and towards the end as they rushed.....

Another part that was unreal was the communication between the military and the FAA.....the response wasn't nearly fast enough....I was just shaking my head.....

We'll never forget!!!

 

[El-Rushbo]

Tubelcane, I thought of all the responses I could give you but none of them are worth it to stoop to a personal attack.

I guess everyone with a differing opinion than yours is a tool? I think it is important to question the government from time to time...I don't trust everything I see on Faux News, do you? Maybe it was shot down, maybe not. The truth is we will never know.

As for having any reason why I should believe your thoery it wasn't shot down, you provided no evidence like a few others on this thread have. I am more inclined to believe them than I am you. Nice try though.

Melon, you are pretty much a tool. Questioning your government means following issues and your elected officials actions, not making shiat up, then prostituting it as something we should all be outraged about.

And your statement "the truth is, we may never know" is about as asinine as I have seen on these conspiracy threads. Typical nutjob arrogance--to presume YOU know more about the truth than the professionals directly involved. Professionals with a lot more knowledge and experience in their trades than some freak on the internet. Professionals like accident investigators, military pilots, engineers, ATC controllers, etc.

You parade some wild theory full of factual holes and too many assumptions as FACT, then when you are presented with the real facts by professionals who know a lot more, you discount their statements and continue to support YOURS as somehow superior.

Quite frankly, I am astounded that people with this kind of mentality are able to even function in our society. Get a clue, drop your vanity/arrogance and listen to what others, who might just know more than you and your fellow nutjobs do, are telling you.

Flight 93 was hijacked. Flight 93 was intentionally crashed by the hijackers. The cockpit tapes support this, the FDR supports this, the accident investigators support this.

Flight 93 was NOT SHOT down. The cockpit tapes support this, the FDR supports this, the accident investigators support this, the military experts-here and elsewhere-support this and have given you reasons to back it up.

Drop it or go live in a shack in Montana and write your manifesto.

/Flame over.

 

[71KILO]

Dude, if an American Fighter Pilot shot down UAL 93, I'd have heard about it. We gossip more than wives. If the US Gov't shot down this plane, a fighter pilot didn't pull the trigger.

Late reply but MAG is exactly right! Those that think 93 was shot down have never been in the military or involved in mil aviation for sure. Word gets around, quickly! We are a little sewing circle when it comes to gossip. If you want something kept secret, then don't tell a crew dog or anyone in the government. Further, a multi-million dollar book deal would have brought a flight 93 shooter out of the wood work by now. Most of the guys sitting alert are guard guys probably furloughed or flying for a major anyway. Point is: the secret would have been out by now.

 

[HoursHore]

The only conspiracy theory I have ever heard other mil pilots talk about is regarding Ron Brown in Kosovo. Never heard any one talk about a 9/11 coverup.

 

[kevdog]

As someone who flew that day, and attended many 9/11 debriefs, I can tell you UAL was not shot down. I get asked that question often.

The facts are:
Pre-9/11 alert aircraft were loaded with a hot gun only. The military aircraft that were on training flights, and were diverted to assist on that day certainly didn't have anything loaded.

The F-16 that was enroute to UAL 93 was nowhere near it (as was stated before). How far away do you think a US missile can be fired and still hit it's target? I can tell you that had the F-16 been armed with a missile, it was not in range.

The F-16 (block-30) radar could not have "sorted" the "target" without asking someone if he had the correct contact, never mind even seeing him out at 100 miles.

Had a missile hit the aircraft, there would have been some indication on the CVR and FDR, and the phone calls that orginated from the flight.

This surprises you? If an Airbus tail can sheer-off on take-off due to wake turb, do you think any tail would stand up to a near vertical plunge?

That's not true, we did know. In fact we knew about it before CNN started talking about the flight.

Hey, I was just stating what was right after the movie. Yes, I agree, a tail could come off from overstress, but it could also come off with a missle. The movie was good, but complete speculation on board flight 93.

 

[El-Rushbo]

Hey, I was just stating what was right after the movie. Yes, I agree, a tail could come off from overstress, but it could also come off with a missle. The movie was good, but complete speculation on board flight 93.

True, and a tail shot off would have evidence of missile fragments and explosive residue, as opposed to a tail coming off from overstress, which the metal would show stress fractures and cracking that the investigators would have analysed under microscope.

So I guess since no missile fragments, missile damage or explosive evidence or residue was found, you would now agree that it was not a missile.

 

[BonesF15]

Shoot down

Dude, if an American Fighter Pilot shot down UAL 93, I'd have heard about it. We gossip more than wives. If the US Gov't shot down this plane, a fighter pilot didn't pull the trigger.

A bud in my guard unit was actually assigned to the squadron dispatched to intercept UAL 93 but it crashed before they made the intercept.
I think that the jet crashing was a lesser evil than if the viper pilot would have shot it down. I wouldn't have wanted to pull the trigger!
One mans opinion...

 

[kevdog]

True, and a tail shot off would have evidence of missile fragments and explosive residue, as opposed to a tail coming off from overstress, which the metal would show stress fractures and cracking that the investigators would have analysed under microscope.

So I guess since no missile fragments, missile damage or explosive evidence or residue was found, you would now agree that it was not a missile.

I agree, as long as there wasn't a coverup in the investigation.

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

Powerful Movie!!!!!!!!!!