Unions, Good thing or bad?

[Mungusaurus]

All of you unionized pilots, working for Colgan we dont have a union and I was wondering having read all the recent Mesa, ACA etc. posts if unions are all they are cracked up to be?
Just a question and not trying to start a flamer.
Thanx, Mung.

 

[tittyjet]

Mung:

When I was at Colgan I really, truly believed that a union would be the best thing that could happen to that place; hell, I was even one of the ones who was seriously talking to ALPA about sending out the ballots, then 9.11 happened.

Now that I'm at a unionized company I can tell you -- without any doubt -- that you guys really, really need one. It's not all roses, but it sure is nice to have some actual work rules, protection, and a contract.

Just having the peace of mind that comes with knowing that if I skid one off the runway, an ALPA attorney is just a phone call away. I know that some folks on this board will say that they don't think the ALPA lawyers are worth a shi t, but, hey, it beats the hell out of what you guys have right now -- nothing. Or, if I have a problem with the comany, I can file a grievance -- you just try complaining about a problem to Mary Finnigan, or, even worse, Eden.

Then there's the issue of insurance -- Loss of License coverage at Colgan? No. Life insurance packages (both whole and term) tailored for pilots at Colgan? No. Long-term care insurance packages at Colgan? No.

I could go on-and-on, but you get the picture. If you want to PM me, I'll give you the name of a guy at ALPA that you can talk to, as well as one of the others at Colgan who was working on the union thing pre-9.11, who is still there.

As always around that place, check six.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

With the exception of well managed companies like JetBlue and Skywest, a union is essential in this work environment -- certainly if you plan on spending any time at a company.

A union protects more than your job from the whim of a fed or a chief pilot who had a bad day, it protects your career.

Would you rather bargain individually, or collectively?

 

[CA1900]

And just a reminder to the CommutAir pilots out there: Our representation election ends at 2pm on Monday, August 11th. If you haven't voted by then, it'll be too late.

Remember, you can't abstain from this election. If you don't call, you're actively casting a "no" vote. We need a majority of the pilots to call in and vote for representation if this is going to happen.

I'm crossing my fingers for all of us come Monday afternoon.

 

[chperplt]

Mung

It's funny you bring up the question.......................

 

[WileE]

Unions = Bad

Management = Worse (95% of the time at least)

Lesser of two evils generally.

Companies where management is smart and treats it's employees respectfully don't need a union and are much better off. As soon as management starts treating it's own employees as the enemy, that's when you need a union. Fight fire with fire. Unfortunately then you get into a vicious cycle of spiralling escalation like the airlines have been in for the past decade or two. Right now the two wrongs are generally not making it right, just more muddled, costing all sides money.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Re: Unions = Bad

Management = Worse (95% of the time at least)

Lesser of two evils generally.

Companies where management is smart and treats it's employees respectfully don't need a union and are much better off. As soon as management starts treating it's own employees as the enemy, that's when you need a union. Fight fire with fire. Unfortunately then you get into a vicious cycle of spiralling escalation like the airlines have been in for the past decade or two. Right now the two wrongs are generally not making it right, just more muddled, costing all sides money.

Wouldn't it be great to work at a company that actually valued their employees and gladly provided a salary you could raise a family on, decent benefits and treated you like you were of value to them. Unfortunately, with very few exceptions, it just doesn't happen without a union.

 

[BRA]

I was pleasantly suprised they ended the pay freeze this month. I think everyone here believed they would take that to at least the end of the year. A piece of good news. And i hear a another C was traded in for a D? I'm talking about beechcraft. I think a union would be a hard thing to make happen here....it is the last thing management would want. Plus the pilots are not all based together. They are all at hick out stations. Making it harder for everyone to communicate, and rally behind a cause.

 

[chperplt]

I think a union would be a hard thing to make happen here....it is the last thing management would want. Plus the pilots are not all based together. They are all at hick out stations. Making it harder for everyone to communicate, and rally behind a cause.

Wouldn't be hard at all. Are the pilots at any airline all based together???

 

[tittyjet]

Of course it's the last thing mgmt would want, Capt Fu cking Obvious....

....what do you think -- Mary Finnigan is going to let you run the ballots though the company postage meter? Oh, here's a thought -- maybe she'll even lease New Market Court to you for the new ALPA offices.

I agree with my chper on this one. If you guys want it bad enough, you can make it happen.

Cancellation of the pay freeze -- my, oh my, doesn't that make the Colgans quite altruistic? Thank the PFTers next time you fly with them for providing the money for this. Maybe they're getting a conscience and are trying to make up for the absolutely shi tty treatment of the pilot group by the Colgan family over the years; yeah, right -- and I've got a bridge to sell you, yoo.

That bunch will sell you out in a second -- don't let your vision be clouded by the fact that they throw you a bone here-and-there.

We'll see if someone around there will finally grow some balls and assume a leadership role....

 

[chperplt]

We'll see if someone around there will finally grow some balls and assume a leadership role....

Magic 8-Ball says yes

 

[tittyjet]

chper:

Tell that person to check six CONSTANTLY. They canned someone back in '99 when they found out he was an organizer.

Someone needs to start an informational website:

www.fu ck the colgans.org

 

[chperplt]

Tell that person to check six CONSTANTLY. They canned someone back in '99 when they found out he was an organizer.Someone needs to start an informational website:

www.fu ck the colgans.org

It's funny you mention a web site.. Someone started a yahoo or hotmail account a year or so ago and put just about all the pilots e-mail addresses into an mass e-mail bundle, plus the CP, ACP, and DO..E-mails where flying about everything. It was funny as sh!t reading some of the cr@p people were writing about the company and it's owners...

 

[BRA]

I see the same 8 pilots all the time and that is it here. Take a place like allegheny, the SYR base has like 60 people i think. Another thing that would hinder a union here is we will be losing our mainline street captains to J4J over time. They would be the biggest supports of the union. They have seen how it is with a union, and fully understand why we need one here. People like me don't know any better. The new PFTer's with 500-900 TT don't know any better. We only know how a real airline works from what we hear from others. I never said i was anti-union....i was just adding to the thread. My vision is far from clouded.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

WileE:

Why are unions bad?

 

[8HourPilot]

Hey Mung, how did everything go with BMA.....any news?

 

[chperplt]

Hey was offered the job, but couldn't bare to leave his current job. He has dreams of being the CP here some day!!!

 

[Mungusaurus]

Me Chief!! MMMMM just imagine.

Chper you an me need a serious chat, both of us know I could never fill those shoes . BMA went good but I turned it down, couldnt swing it financially, my single wide needs a new beer can on the porch ( the old one rusted), my baby needs a clean daiper and Colgan pays me just enough to keep me hanging on living paycheck to paycheck.
Thanks for asking though, Mung.

 

[tittyjet]

CP at Colgan...now there are some drunk shoes to fill. Hey Mung, can you get your nose that red???

 

[46Driver]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, but who said, "We are gonna choke this golden goose until it gives us every last egg?"

 

[Dilbert]

Regional Unions

Historically it has been hard to get unions up and running at the regional level as too many pilots are of the mindset they are just passing through en route to the majors. Why stick your neck out at a temporary job? Once you get to the majors you have arrived and suddenly you have a lot to loose. Self-interest tends to radicalize folks, and you will fight harder to keep a $150K job with 19 days off and a defined contribution retirement over a crummy $15K sodomy job. I once worked for a commuter with a little in- house union where management would fire pilots to try to maintain a climate of terror. It was very, very ugly. Virtual open warfare, awful. I also worked at a great non-union airline that was so scared of unionizing they worked very hard to keep the pilots happy with excellent crew meals, nice hotels, great schedules, etc. A successful union requires: LEADERSHIP, UNITY, and COURAGE. Without those qualities you are fuc#ed.

 

[acaTerry]

Best answer I can give is that unions are only as good as those that are being represented.
Pro: Airline pilots would have 4 days off and get 8 bucks a flight hour without them.
Cons: Go to PIT or PHL United stations....these places give unions a bad name.

 

[8HourPilot]

Well at least you got news from both sides and was able to make a decision that was best for you....thats something to say in todays industry.

 

[climbhappy]

munga sauraus (whatever that is) last time i checked, mainline gives colgan $50 per seat sold on anything not EAS.....in other words, running a business can be tough..ask the rj operators that are gonna lose their fee per departure all across the board in the next couple of years. why do you think ACA is going solo...those numbers don't fly.....

i have another topic to spout off on.... a union would never and will never work at a small privately held company...

public ownership subjects the board of directors to scrutiny by the shareholders..... that's how it works in the real world...
small family companies will not be told how to run their business...

i was suprised at how quick you reduced the relaxation of the pay freeze to the trickling in of PFT money..... Mike Jr, came forward and said the numbers turned around and he thanked you by giving you the raise...private companies don't have to provide numbers to anyone other than the IRS.

I'm amazed by the rhetoric and the blistering allegations so readily thrown at them. Furloughed guys don't and can't expect the colgans to be like mainline USAir. they're just doing time...

a union will never succeed at colgan and i don't plan to wait for it too. But even at a company like ccair from whence i came, only to see us whipsawed againt the mesa pilot group, the union did nothing for me other than deny the majority of junior pilots a right to a voice.... that's right , our union, a small group of elders denied the majority of the group,(ones with five or less years) the chance to vote jets for lower rates on the J32. we had guys guys making 65,000 on the Jetstream with 10 years.

no bs.....the fact was we were overpaid compared with the industry.....calll it parity plus 25%.

finally, you should educate yourself on the union question by reading the history of airline failures......

unfortunately, a mature industry like aviation , just like long distance, printing, textiles, furniture, autos, gadjets are all subject to LOW priced competitors......


if you need a nother beer can for your trailer , grow a set of balls and get a job that pays you what you're worth....

i ran into a buddy of mine just out of ioe at mesa.... Alpa signed off on the deal, that the entire regional industry including a bunch of schmucks on this board, ridicule mesa for having signed off on in the throes of a recession...nevermind reality....

 

[pilotyip]

Not the answer to everything

I have worked at two union airlines, ALPA and Teamsters, both companies are out of business, the place I work now has much better pay, days off and working conditions than the last union place I worked at. Remember unions are selling a service and they charge dues for that service. In fact I saved the pay stub from my last union job, Teamsters, where they took their dues out of my last check as the company went out of business. I agree bad management brings unions into the work place, but unions do not make bad management good. And unions do not work at small privately held companies. . Do not make hiring decision in these times based on union or non-union.

 

[chperplt]

if you need a nother beer can for your trailer , grow a set of balls and get a job that pays you what you're worth....

Climb

I think you are in need of a beer my friend.

Mung just asked a question. He has never worked for a company that has a union. He asked for advice. I didn't read anything from him that said we at Colgan Air needed one. He simply asked about them. Lighten up a bit.

By the way.. Do you believe everything management tells you? Granted, Mike Jr. is for the most part a straight shooter. Do you really think the PFT money had nothing to do with the pay freeze going away or the addition of 3 more D models?

Your $50 figure is not quite accurate. Fees are based and contracted on individual routes. The fee is different based on the ticket purchased. Tickets from passengers traveling on Colgan to connect with a Mainline flight generate a "fee" based on the ticket class, while Mainline gets a "fee" for tickets purchased that are entirely flown on Colgan. A LGA-HYA-LGA passenger who pays a full Y fare (which is actually most of them), will generally generate $650-800 in revenue for Colgan, while Mainline will get a small "fee" plus taxes and security fees of course.

 

[climbhappy]

chper, who are you? his big brother

sure he was joking about the beercan.....but if he's underpaid get another job....one that pays him what he's worth....what in the blazes is so illogical about that... by the way i stuck to the topic he started this thread with.....

chper, do you think a union can survive in an atmoshpere of a small privately held family business?

 

[Mungusaurus]

Climbmiserable

Dude take a step back, my original post had nothing to do with Colgan. I read this board almost every day and I read a lot about how MEC's and Alpa etc are screwing their pilots. I will move on from this job as everybody does and the next company I go to will probably have a union and I wanted some opinions. As to say I have no balls I have stayed with Colgan while many have bailed after a few months, I paid a small amount of the dues I owe to this life and now things are getting better. Chper and I are pretty good mates and I thank him for watching my back. You dont know me so before you start insulting me Id take the log out of your own eye!
As for the pay freeze being over I hope they havent screwed themselves by having to give 2/3 rds of the company a raise at the same time, thats a lot of money to be dishing out at once.
Just my opinion, thanx, Mung.

 

[hifhflyer]

whoa boys, let's ease some of the tension here- we're all on the same side. i understand the pros and cons everyone is saying there are when it comes to unions. however, when you have over 250 crewmembers, a majority of which are not necessarily unhappy with the company, but with the way things are run, and the handling of certain issues, what is the harm in having a representative to bring the grievances to the attention of the management? i would think that most people will agree that a company is most productive when it's employees are happy. happy pilots and F/As are more likely to think twice before calling in a sick day, and less likely to say "F*** you" when they are called to work on a day off. i think a lot of the issues at colgan stem from not only a lack of organization, but from the lack of appreciation and acknowledgement of a job well done.

 

[chperplt]

Climb,

Why are you at Colgan?? Probably because you were let go from your last job, right? Mung and I aren't just waiting for a recall to go back to, and would actually like to see this place prosper.

You ask if I think a union can survive in an atmoshphere of a small privately held family business.

I honestly don't know. What I do know is that as a fairly senior captain with this company, I do not like how I'm treated by scheduling and dispatch 99% of the time. I do know that that if the plans being talked about in HEF come to fruition, we aren't going to be small for much longer.

I don't know if a union is a good or bad thing here, but I do know that something has to be done to reign in the Delta Romeos of this company. We have absolutely no work rules here. There has to be a limit to what we can be "told" what to do. The pilot group needs somewhere to go (other than the FAA) when we are told that this or that is legal, when we know good and well that it isn't.