Unions, Good thing or bad?

[Dilbert]

Regional Unions

Historically it has been hard to get unions up and running at the regional level as too many pilots are of the mindset they are just passing through en route to the majors. Why stick your neck out at a temporary job? Once you get to the majors you have arrived and suddenly you have a lot to loose. Self-interest tends to radicalize folks, and you will fight harder to keep a $150K job with 19 days off and a defined contribution retirement over a crummy $15K sodomy job. I once worked for a commuter with a little in- house union where management would fire pilots to try to maintain a climate of terror. It was very, very ugly. Virtual open warfare, awful. I also worked at a great non-union airline that was so scared of unionizing they worked very hard to keep the pilots happy with excellent crew meals, nice hotels, great schedules, etc. A successful union requires: LEADERSHIP, UNITY, and COURAGE. Without those qualities you are fuc#ed.

 

[acaTerry]

Best answer I can give is that unions are only as good as those that are being represented.
Pro: Airline pilots would have 4 days off and get 8 bucks a flight hour without them.
Cons: Go to PIT or PHL United stations....these places give unions a bad name.

 

[8HourPilot]

Well at least you got news from both sides and was able to make a decision that was best for you....thats something to say in todays industry.

 

[climbhappy]

munga sauraus (whatever that is) last time i checked, mainline gives colgan $50 per seat sold on anything not EAS.....in other words, running a business can be tough..ask the rj operators that are gonna lose their fee per departure all across the board in the next couple of years. why do you think ACA is going solo...those numbers don't fly.....

i have another topic to spout off on.... a union would never and will never work at a small privately held company...

public ownership subjects the board of directors to scrutiny by the shareholders..... that's how it works in the real world...
small family companies will not be told how to run their business...

i was suprised at how quick you reduced the relaxation of the pay freeze to the trickling in of PFT money..... Mike Jr, came forward and said the numbers turned around and he thanked you by giving you the raise...private companies don't have to provide numbers to anyone other than the IRS.

I'm amazed by the rhetoric and the blistering allegations so readily thrown at them. Furloughed guys don't and can't expect the colgans to be like mainline USAir. they're just doing time...

a union will never succeed at colgan and i don't plan to wait for it too. But even at a company like ccair from whence i came, only to see us whipsawed againt the mesa pilot group, the union did nothing for me other than deny the majority of junior pilots a right to a voice.... that's right , our union, a small group of elders denied the majority of the group,(ones with five or less years) the chance to vote jets for lower rates on the J32. we had guys guys making 65,000 on the Jetstream with 10 years.

no bs.....the fact was we were overpaid compared with the industry.....calll it parity plus 25%.

finally, you should educate yourself on the union question by reading the history of airline failures......

unfortunately, a mature industry like aviation , just like long distance, printing, textiles, furniture, autos, gadjets are all subject to LOW priced competitors......


if you need a nother beer can for your trailer , grow a set of balls and get a job that pays you what you're worth....

i ran into a buddy of mine just out of ioe at mesa.... Alpa signed off on the deal, that the entire regional industry including a bunch of schmucks on this board, ridicule mesa for having signed off on in the throes of a recession...nevermind reality....

 

[pilotyip]

Not the answer to everything

I have worked at two union airlines, ALPA and Teamsters, both companies are out of business, the place I work now has much better pay, days off and working conditions than the last union place I worked at. Remember unions are selling a service and they charge dues for that service. In fact I saved the pay stub from my last union job, Teamsters, where they took their dues out of my last check as the company went out of business. I agree bad management brings unions into the work place, but unions do not make bad management good. And unions do not work at small privately held companies. . Do not make hiring decision in these times based on union or non-union.

 

[chperplt]

if you need a nother beer can for your trailer , grow a set of balls and get a job that pays you what you're worth....

Climb

I think you are in need of a beer my friend.

Mung just asked a question. He has never worked for a company that has a union. He asked for advice. I didn't read anything from him that said we at Colgan Air needed one. He simply asked about them. Lighten up a bit.

By the way.. Do you believe everything management tells you? Granted, Mike Jr. is for the most part a straight shooter. Do you really think the PFT money had nothing to do with the pay freeze going away or the addition of 3 more D models?

Your $50 figure is not quite accurate. Fees are based and contracted on individual routes. The fee is different based on the ticket purchased. Tickets from passengers traveling on Colgan to connect with a Mainline flight generate a "fee" based on the ticket class, while Mainline gets a "fee" for tickets purchased that are entirely flown on Colgan. A LGA-HYA-LGA passenger who pays a full Y fare (which is actually most of them), will generally generate $650-800 in revenue for Colgan, while Mainline will get a small "fee" plus taxes and security fees of course.

 

[climbhappy]

chper, who are you? his big brother

sure he was joking about the beercan.....but if he's underpaid get another job....one that pays him what he's worth....what in the blazes is so illogical about that... by the way i stuck to the topic he started this thread with.....

chper, do you think a union can survive in an atmoshpere of a small privately held family business?

 

[Mungusaurus]

Climbmiserable

Dude take a step back, my original post had nothing to do with Colgan. I read this board almost every day and I read a lot about how MEC's and Alpa etc are screwing their pilots. I will move on from this job as everybody does and the next company I go to will probably have a union and I wanted some opinions. As to say I have no balls I have stayed with Colgan while many have bailed after a few months, I paid a small amount of the dues I owe to this life and now things are getting better. Chper and I are pretty good mates and I thank him for watching my back. You dont know me so before you start insulting me Id take the log out of your own eye!
As for the pay freeze being over I hope they havent screwed themselves by having to give 2/3 rds of the company a raise at the same time, thats a lot of money to be dishing out at once.
Just my opinion, thanx, Mung.

 

[hifhflyer]

whoa boys, let's ease some of the tension here- we're all on the same side. i understand the pros and cons everyone is saying there are when it comes to unions. however, when you have over 250 crewmembers, a majority of which are not necessarily unhappy with the company, but with the way things are run, and the handling of certain issues, what is the harm in having a representative to bring the grievances to the attention of the management? i would think that most people will agree that a company is most productive when it's employees are happy. happy pilots and F/As are more likely to think twice before calling in a sick day, and less likely to say "F*** you" when they are called to work on a day off. i think a lot of the issues at colgan stem from not only a lack of organization, but from the lack of appreciation and acknowledgement of a job well done.

 

[chperplt]

Climb,

Why are you at Colgan?? Probably because you were let go from your last job, right? Mung and I aren't just waiting for a recall to go back to, and would actually like to see this place prosper.

You ask if I think a union can survive in an atmoshphere of a small privately held family business.

I honestly don't know. What I do know is that as a fairly senior captain with this company, I do not like how I'm treated by scheduling and dispatch 99% of the time. I do know that that if the plans being talked about in HEF come to fruition, we aren't going to be small for much longer.

I don't know if a union is a good or bad thing here, but I do know that something has to be done to reign in the Delta Romeos of this company. We have absolutely no work rules here. There has to be a limit to what we can be "told" what to do. The pilot group needs somewhere to go (other than the FAA) when we are told that this or that is legal, when we know good and well that it isn't.

 

[climbhappy]

mungu.... you're thread started i work for colgan and we don't have a union, then you said,.....and colgan only pays me enough to live paycheck to paycheck..... i think you brought colgan into from the getgo

listen, i'm not knocking you, but i encourage to find a better paying job if things are that bad.... i did take a jab at you , sure... this is an anonymous message board....no harm no foul, right!


back to your topic, a union will never work at colgan.. the power is concentrated in a family, who doesn't have to disclose financials and doesn't answer to shareholders... i thought mike,jr was forthcoming in his letter and said things improved. here's your raise i witheld.....

i keep hearing brink talk about the bad attitudes with schedulers..nevermind what you accuse them of doing.....they sign your paycheck and quite frankly, they own you when you show up for work...

ALPA did not work at ccair for younger junior pilots.....the power was held on to by a close knit group of senior guys.... we got screwed by not having key items put up for a vote.....
cc air pilot group was then 219.

cc air was also a public company..... in conclusion, a union will never work at colgan for the above mentioned reasons.

got to go to work,, must find another beer can for my single wide!

 

[chperplt]

Happy

mungu.... you're thread started i work for colgan and we don't have a union, then you said,.....and colgan only pays me enough to live paycheck to paycheck..... i think you brought colgan into from the getgo \

That quote came from a question about Mungs interview with BMA. The context of that quote was directly related to why he didn't leave Colgan.. Had nothing to do with this thread.

the power is concentrated in a family, who doesn't have to disclose financials and doesn't answer to shareholders... i thought mike,jr was forthcoming in his letter and said things improved. here's your raise i witheld...\

Why does the above equal union failure? Does a company need to be a public company to be unionized?

By the way.. Mike Colgan, SR (not JR) is the President of the company and wrote that memo.

i keep hearing brink talk about the bad attitudes with schedulers..nevermind what you accuse them of doing.....they sign your paycheck and quite frankly, they own you when you show up for work...

You'll do anything they ask of you when you show up to work? Because they own you, right?? They don't own me.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Unions good or bad?

Yes.

 

[climbhappy]

chperplt,

charles J colgan, sr. is the chairman of the board correct, then mike jr. president ,ceo and mike jr. of system control.

is that right? i erred when i listed mike. i thought they were all mikeys.

i think because in a privately held company, the control is total and the lawyers are the mouthpiece in delicate matters.

the nature of a closekl held company is one of total disretion without interference from shareholders or other parties with hidden agendas. there simply aren't the constraints or conflict that comes from multiple parties being involved in key issues.

they can act on a wim and censure or control any situation that in their eyes could jeopardize the company or its; well being.

i have seen it before and the dynamic at work is one where management has all the cards. In this case with respect to a union, it simply in their eyes is counter to the very nature of their control and their use of power.

that is why , in my view, they acted to restore wages and appear to be ambassaors of good will. however you may view their motives is simply a matter of opinion.

 

[chperplt]

then mike jr. president

Mike Sr is president.

they can act on a wim and censure or control any situation that in their eyes could jeopardize the company or its; well being.

And that right there is the problem. With a labor contract they couldn't do that.

 

[airbus331]

"UNIONS SUCK"

 

[WhiteCloud]

You'll do anything they ask of you when you show up to work? Because they own you, right?? They don't own me.

They keep trying to own pilots with training contracts and now training fees. It's just a place to get some 121 turbine experience and move on. Colgan likes it that way so it's hard to feel sorry for them when pilots quit after a short time when a better opportunity comes along.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Unions, Good or Bad?

Unions good or bad?

Yes.

Very astute.

ALPA, for example, is a very good union under extremely bad management.

Or maybe I should say poor leadership.

No wait...If it weren't for bad leadership, they'd have no leadership at all.

Time for another beer.