Union or not Union, that is the question

[Annie]

A third way?

I find in the last few months I have been thinking more and more about the "terrorist within".. We are so determined to rid the world of "terrorists". What are we doing to rid our country of organized terrorists? Those groups that refuse to live by a mutually agreed upon code of ethics? Those groups that manipulate our system and bully our people for their own benefits?

As for me I believe the gaming industry, the unions, the mafia, etc. are all groups that I would consider internal terrorists.

Is it not possible to have a "new system"? Why can't we have a system whereby the representative of employees sit down with management and design a future for the company with concomitant benefits for both? Why must it alway be us/them?

 

[PCL_128]

Why must it alway be us/them?

Because management makes it that way. Do you honestly think that those of us in union leadership positions wouldn't prefer to just sit down and work things out with management in a common sense fashion? Of course we would. We've tried. It doesn't work. Management creates the us-vs-them mentality. We were just forced to adapt to it and work within it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Striking is a tool used to get what the labor union wants, when the management won't give it to them.

Yes, and management has a similar tool - the lockout. They use it to get what they want when labor won't give it to them. Are management lockouts okay but employee strikes unacceptable?

 

[Occam's Razor]

I find in the last few months I have been thinking more and more about the "terrorist within".. We are so determined to rid the world of "terrorists". What are we doing to rid our country of organized terrorists? Those groups that refuse to live by a mutually agreed upon code of ethics? Those groups that manipulate our system and bully our people for their own benefits?

You mean people that would lie or mislead to achieve their goals? Those that would take advantage of others for their own benefit?

Let's leave Dubya and Dick out of this!

Let's focus on managements.

If the management population of the country was nothing but Aaron Feuersteins [www.opi-inc.com/malden.htm
www.columbia.edu/cu/record/archives/vol22/vol22_iss3/Feuerstein_SyCip_Botwinick.html
www.answers.com/topic/aaron-feuerstein ] then you might be close to correct in your assumptions. But the "organized groups" that manipulate for their own benefit include those who wear three-peice suits, and slough-off the huge bonuses they recieve while their employees take paycuts with a glib, "You gotta pay more to keep good people."

As for me I believe the gaming industry, the unions, the mafia, etc. are all groups that I would consider internal terrorists.

Here on Earth we try not to label with generalizations that come to us during peyote-induced hallucinations...but if your species functions well in our atmosphere only when you bypass logic and rational analysis...you go!

For yuks, try Googling "Tyco", "Enron", and "World Com". There's an education there for those who are searching for possible "terrorism" within corporations.

Is it not possible to have a "new system"? Why can't we have a system whereby the representative of employees sit down with management and design a future for the company with concomitant benefits for both? Why must it alway be us/them?

Awww! You're kinda cute when you're naive!

Next time you're reading the paper (no..not the soduku puzzle or the horoscopes) read some of the comments from any of the CEO's of companies that believe the "concomitant benefits for both" mean the employees take cuts while they get bonuses.

Knock off the "terrorist" crap and get a clue!

 

[Annie]

Dear Occam's Razor:

I was trying to group my examples by type of behavior--physical, life threatening bullying of anyone to get "co-operation" was the type of style I was trying to explain. I have even witnessed corruption in academia so great and so terrifying that the top guys walk away in fear.

I agree with you on the "greed is good" crowd--they have been a powerfully destructive force. However, when speaking of unions I am reminded of a time back in the 1970's when some of the loggers drove into town and complained to the school of Forestry Mgmt. at the university. It seems these guys without a diploma were already seeing that clear cutting did not work and had devastating effects on snow melt and water run off. Drier timber lands in late summer=more fire, less water for downstream irrigation=droughts, etc. Do you know what they were told by the most adamant environmentalists on campus?
"Go home--be thankful you got a job and shut up." These were also union people speaking--the teacher's union. This is just one example where unions have become so focused on the short term immediate solution that they refused to acknowledge the long term possibilities, or impact. Of course, management does the same thing. What I want to know is when does it stop? When do we recognize that some actions are evil, and some are just plain stupid? And, most importantly how can we handle these conflicts without bullying the little guy?

Your right I am a little tired lately, but I never use anything but a martini. So, I would appreciate it if you not accuse me of something that is not true. You have a right to think I am stupid, and I know I am naive about some things, but your posts with their razor sharp logic are always, well almost always, a welcome read!

 

[Gatorman]

HiJacked

I am going to have to cut the line on this one, my thread has been hijiacked :uzi:

First the moderators move it out from the mechanics board and now we are fighting the terrorist within.

Snot-nosed college boys

 

[Occam's Razor]

I am going to have to cut the line on this one, my thread has been hijiacked :uzi:

If that's the worst thing that happens to you today...you're doin' ok!

(And it's no more "your thread" than the jet's "yours" because you refill the hyd fluid)

First the moderators move it out from the mechanics board and now we are fighting the terrorist within.

"fighting"? Nah.

"terrorist"? Nah.

No terrorists here. A mis-applied label. Don't believe everything you read. The first one to the chalkboard didn't necessarily win the fight.

Snot-nosed college boys

That's "Captain snot-nosed college boy" to you!

Semper Fi!

 

[pilotyip]

Toyota & Honda = Non-Union, GM and Ford = Union

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Toyota & Honda = Non-Union, GM and Ford = Union

Wrong.

My Toyota truck was made by UAW union workers. My Toyota truck puts food on American tables. Ford and GM products put tacos on Mexican tables and Canadain Bacon on Knuck tables....

C'mon Yip... as a MI guy you should know this...

 

[Occam's Razor]

I was trying to group my examples by type of behavior--physical, life threatening bullying of anyone to get "co-operation" was the type of style I was trying to explain.

You equated unions with the mafia and terrorists. I am a proud trade-unionist and I resent the connection. The union I am a part of has never done anything remotely similar to "physical, life threatening bullying".

I have even witnessed corruption in academia so great and so terrifying that the top guys walk away in fear.

So, that means all teacher's unions are corrupt? Does Sister Mary Biceps' penchant for whacking me with a ruler in the third grade mean teachers are terrorists because I've personally witnessed a teacher beating a child with a stick? (They were small tacks and I wasn't sure they'd penetrate her habit when she sat on them...)

I agree with you on the "greed is good" crowd--they have been a powerfully destructive force. However, when speaking of unions I am reminded of a time back in the 1970's when some of the loggers drove into town and complained to the school of Forestry Mgmt. at the university. It seems these guys without a diploma were already seeing that clear cutting did not work and had devastating effects on snow melt and water run off. Drier timber lands in late summer=more fire, less water for downstream irrigation=droughts, etc. Do you know what they were told by the most adamant environmentalists on campus?
"Go home--be thankful you got a job and shut up." These were also union people speaking--the teacher's union.

Wow! Now THAT'S "terrorism"!

Thank Yahweh Timmy McVeigh only blew up a Federal Building instead of clear-cutting a section of forest!

[Mis-applied labels such as "terrorist" elicit extra sarcasm from my "special place"]

This is just one example where unions have become so focused on the short term immediate solution that they refused to acknowledge the long term possibilities, or impact.

In that case, you're right! Unions are nothing but terrorist organizations.

Sheesh!

Of course, management does the same thing. What I want to know is when does it stop?

Huh? You said "mafia", "gaming industry", and "unions"! Leave those sainted denizens of the corner offices out of this! Our benevolent overseers would DIE before they'd do something for a strictly short-term benefit or for their own personal gain! Ken Lay was actually on his way to an orphanage to give away the billions he stole from the employees and investors in Enron, when he was so tragically called home by Satan. Dennis Kozlowski is still trying to donate a kidney to starving tsunami victims (goes well with saffron rice!).

When do we recognize that some actions are evil, and some are just plain stupid?

There are two kinds of people in the World: Good and bad. And the "good" get to decide who's who. [Note naive rhetorical question countered with kindness and cliche instead of the harsh sting of weapons-grade sarcasm]

And, most importantly how can we handle these conflicts without bullying the little guy?

Ok...now you're getting warm. Unions exist because the toads in some managements [Note, not all managements are populated by toads] use the power of their position to crush individual employees. At some point our species realized that standing together as workers can balance the power wielded by the bosses.

It's not unique to companies. Despite advertisment that asserts otherwise, an Army Of One is not always a good idea. Matching firepower increases the probability of success. You might not believe it until you are being strong-armed by management and you would like your fellow employees to stand with you.

Your right I am a little tired lately, but I never use anything but a martini. So, I would appreciate it if you not accuse me of something that is not true.

Ok...then I accuse the moron who stole your password and posted something really lame. I hope you catch the guy...

You have a right to think I am stupid, and I know I am naive about some things, but your posts with their razor sharp logic are always, well almost always, a welcome read!

(Blush)

Me? You need to get out more.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Hey Annie,
You have to understand something about occam’s razor. He is incapable of comprehending a complete idea. That is why he needs to break down other posts, so he can try to under stand it.

 

[405]

Thanks TWU!!!

The human failure that started the union drive still struggles daily with his job. He got the inexperienced college kids on board for his cause though. Score one for labor. This chump will keep his job because unions protect the weak.

No raise in two years while cost of living keeps going up around me. Thanks, you dummies.

Common sense died long ago.

 

[doh]

That's what my roomate tells me. If I ever end up at a regional maybe I change my mind. I hope not though. But if I do I'll let you know.




Fair question. If enough pilots don't like the working conditions and quit. And since the conditions are so bad nobody will work there, then the management will be forced to make improvements in order to get and keep employees.

If a pilot quits, he has to start over at the bottom of someone's list. This is unique in the working world. My wife, who works in IT, can go to a better position. I as a pilot can not. That is really why unions form. Management has set up a seniority system to keep us from leaving easily. Seniority systems existed before unions were formed so they are a management construct. Since we are, at least in the medium term, locked into a company, we band together to use collective leverage to negotiate terms that we otherwise would not get. The CFR's for example, only require 1 day off every 7. Without the union, we would be gone from home all but 5 days in a month. When you get your first flying job, you will quickly find that management's attitude is that you are not a human being, but simply a work input. Without the union's minimum garauntees, you would not have a life. There are a lot of 135 charter operations where you do not have any days off. If you don't get called out, that was your time off. In essence they are on call 24/7. You can't have a marriage under those conditions, you can't maintain relationships under those conditions, and you can't have any friends who aren't in the same boat as you either. People don't understand how you can constantly make plans to go out and then "blow them off". They can't fathom that there are employers out there who treat their employees that cruelly, so it must be you that are "blowing them off". You really will understand all this once you get the first job.

 

[Annie]

Geez Doh:

I hate to say this but your summary is rather simplistic. My husband wanted to leave his place of employment because he had been discriminated against for years in terms of benefits and salary. (He was the only straight white Lutheran type). When they finally broke his contract he just wanted a buy out and let us leave. The dirty little girls who had spent the last 10 years getting paid to be 'working'(?) mothers refused to let him leave, because they needed to copy his work. So, because he would not stay--they blacklisted him. All liberal democrats--you know--the "change agent types". In fact one of his students in mangement had been a union employee, she said about her teacher: "he either works for us, or he doesn't work!" Sorry, to smear the boundaries of your vision of the world.

 

[doh]

Annie, I did not mean to say it never happens other places. I just said it is possible to leave for a better job in the ground pounder world. It is impossible in the pilot world. Your husband's experience is atypical in the extreme. Is he by chance in academia?