Union or not Union, that is the question

[Gatorman]

Not to hijack the scab mechanic thread, but I just have to know what useful purpose does a union serve?

I have never been in a union nor do I believe that working with a union could make life better for me.

Granted, I have not worked for a major airline, but have worked with fellow mechanics that were with a union. They did not seem to miss the enviroment that much, that is why I ask the question.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not to hijack the scab mechanic thread, but I just have to know what useful purpose does a union serve?

I have never been in a union nor do I believe that working with a union could make life better for me.

Granted, I have not worked for a major airline, but have worked with fellow mechanics that were with a union. They did not seem to miss the enviroment that much, that is why I ask the question.

Critic to Author....

I haven't read your book, however..................................


Unions are like any organization. They have people. If the people have integrity then the organization has integrity.

Unions exists because management doesn't know how to not take for granted employees. Any organization including your own family is people. So it necessarily isn't management but the people in managment. Have you ever been taken for granted by your parents or spouse?

 

[skydivinguy]

unions

The IAM kept Air Midwest mechanics from having to take a 10% pay cut back in the late 80's. I and many others joined the IAM when management made that threat.

After that however, the union sucked. Collected dues and kept the deadwood on board.

I have since had A&P jobs with much better pay and benefits with no union involvement.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The IAM kept Air Midwest mechanics from having to take a 10% pay cut back in the late 80's. I and many others joined the IAM when management made that threat.

So the people in managment sucked?

After that however, the union sucked. Collected dues and kept the deadwood on board.

So the people in the union sucked?

I have since had A&P jobs with much better pay and benefits with no union involvement.

So the people in managment didn't suck?

 

[rjacobs]

I believe unions are a two edged sword. Sometimes they are great, sometimes they are bad, it depends on who the union leadership is. Some union leaders think they should butt heads with the company on any and every issue while others will flow with the company, while still others have another way of doing things. I think a good example is the AA overhaul base in TUL. For years it was a head butting contest and then when AA said they were going to close the base down because it was losing money, the union changed and started working with management and the base is still open and still making improvements by the unions working together.

 

[Gatorman]

Send me to the penalty box.......

The moderators in their infinant wisdom have kipped my thread from the mechanics board where is fully intended it to be and moved to the Union board.

Dear Sir(s),
If I had intended to hear the opinions of every other mellonhead on this forum, I would have placed it in this newly formed board and enjoyed hearing all about the Flight Attendants, Pilots, Baggage Handlers, and Air Traffic Controllers.
But no, I did not wish to hear about them, I wanted the mechanic's opinion. The guys that put the wrenches to the planes, the avionics shop, the tire and battery shops...that is who I want to hear from.

Now, before you toss me into the Penalty box for having a bad attitude I would like you to think about how it would feel if someone moved your posting from the Corporate board to let's say, to the Ultralights board. You are both pilots talking about flying right?

So now, do as your conscience guides you.

Good day,
GATOR

 

[Majik]

Not to hijack the scab mechanic thread, but I just have to know what useful purpose does a union serve?

I have never been in a union nor do I believe that working with a union could make life better for me.

Granted, I have not worked for a major airline, but have worked with fellow mechanics that were with a union. They did not seem to miss the enviroment that much, that is why I ask the question.

I was never in a union before coming to NetJets. Prior to that I felt pretty much the same as you and asked myself, "What useful purpose does a union serve and how could a union make my life better?"

At NetJets, the pilots are the union. We have great leadership that comes from volunteers directly within our ranks. A majority of our membership have proven that they support our leadership. With this union of pilots we get a collective say in negotiating our pay, schedule, rest, hotels, meals, transportation, health care, work rules, disability insurance, loss of license insurance, health insurance, bases, 401k, vacations, seniority bidding, etc. Once we obtain a contract it gives pilots and management a written set of rules that must be followed by both sides. It cannot be changed without joint agreement between management and pilots.

If there are some trustworthy, energetic volunteers from within your ranks that are willing to sacrifice their time and effort, and they have the ACTIVE support from a majority of your fellow employees, your quality of life can be improved and protected. If there are no leaders within your ranks and/or a majority of your fellow employees are not willing to take an active part in their own futures, then a union is only worth what you put into it.
Nothing + Nothing = Nothing.

 

[paulsalem]

No union, if you don't like the job or the working conditions you are free to leave. If enough people leave the company, then the management will be forced to change working conditions to keep employees. Basically it’s capitalism. If I don't like the food at Wendy's, I’ll stop going there. So if I don’t like the working conditions at Wendy’s, I stop working there.

I look at a strike or threatening to strike as extortion.

 

[Majik]

No union, if you don't like the job or the working conditions you are free to leave. If enough people leave the company, then the management will be forced to change working conditions to keep employees. Basically it’s capitalism. If I don't like the food at Wendy's, I’ll stop going there. So if I don’t like the working conditions at Wendy’s, I stop working there.

I look at a strike or threatening to strike as extortion.

Don't view it as extortion - that's illegal. Think of it as a majority of the employees doing what you suggested they do individually - deciding whether or not to quit, only all at the same time. The company is still free to hire new employees, right?

 

[paulsalem]

Don't view it as extortion - that's illegal. Think of it as a majority of the employees doing what you suggested they do individually - deciding whether or not to quit, only all at the same time. The company is still free to hire new employees, right?

Well striking is not quitting. Striking is a tool used to get what the labor union wants, when the management won't give it to them.

Yes the company is free to hire new people. But those people will not be treated respectfully when they try to cross the picket line to come to work.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. But those people will not be treated respectfully when they try to cross the picket line to come to work.

And why should they be?

 

[paulsalem]

And why should they be?

Enough said.

 

[PCL_128]

Although I'm only a 1,000 hour CFI, so what do I know?

Enough said.

 

[paulsalem]

Enough said.

But I have five years of management experience at various companies.

And you're right, if I had 20,000 hours I'd probably change my mind

 

[PCL_128]

But I have five years of management experience at various companies.

And you're right, if I had 20,000 hours I'd probably change my mind

Do you have any idea how many airline pilots are anti-union when they get hired? Give them just a few months of living under draconian working conditions and their tune changes real quick. I'm a prime example. I was one of the most anti-union people you would ever meet. Less than a year into working at my previous non-union airline, my opinion changed real quick. I'm sure yours would too.

And no, it has nothing to do with how many hours you have. I could care less how many hours anyone has. However, how can you possibly know whether unions are necessary when you haven't even been a part of this profession yet?

 

[paulsalem]

Do you have any idea how many airline pilots are anti-union when they get hired? Give them just a few months of living under draconian working conditions and their tune changes real quick. I'm a prime example. I was one of the most anti-union people you would ever meet. Less than a year into working at my previous non-union airline, my opinion changed real quick. I'm sure yours would too.

That's what my roomate tells me. If I ever end up at a regional maybe I change my mind. I hope not though. But if I do I'll let you know.

how can you possibly know whether unions are necessary when you haven't even been a part of this profession yet?

Fair question. If enough pilots don't like the working conditions and quit. And since the conditions are so bad nobody will work there, then the management will be forced to make improvements in order to get and keep employees.

 

[PCL_128]

That's what my roomate tells me.

Sounds like a smart guy.

 

[paulsalem]

Sounds like a smart guy.

Hahaha, he's been corruped. Drinking the coolaid!

 

[Majik]

If enough pilots don't like the working conditions and quit. And since the conditions are so bad nobody will work there, then the management will be forced to make improvements in order to get and keep employees.

It doesn't work that way in the real world. To get a good job in aviation you must have experience. There will always be a long line of pilots willing to initially work for low pay and a poor quality of life while they attempt to gain that experience. The only way to convince management to make those improvements is to have leverage and the ability to negotiate. As long as there is a line of low-time pilots willing to work cheap the only leverage pilots have is to stand together and argue their collective worth to management. Management then has to make a decision; improve pay/working conditions or replace their experienced workforce. There's a big cost in hiring/training an entire workforce and it takes time. There's also a risk that customers may not want to fly in the back of that company's aircraft while those new pilots gain experience.

Either way, it's still management's final decision.

A lot of anti-union folks feel it's not right for people to try to improve working conditions within their company. They, like you, feel you should either accept the job and keep your mouth shut or leave. Employees legally having the choice to negotiate improvements just seems wrong to some.

 

[Brian a300]

You must look at Unions as a cheap insurance policy. I was at NetJets and now Fedex, keep in mind that once something goes wrong, ie missed trip, late show, dinged aircraft. The Union looks pretty good at this point.

If you don't have one, you are an at will employee and can be fired for any minor infraction. The Union Contract must be followed with the company. If there is no contract, then will may have to pay out of pocket to get your job back w/ an attorney. As was stated earlier though, the union is the people locally, if they have no integrity, then you are doomed to fail.