Union or not Union, that is the question

[Gatorman]

Not to hijack the scab mechanic thread, but I just have to know what useful purpose does a union serve?

I have never been in a union nor do I believe that working with a union could make life better for me.

Granted, I have not worked for a major airline, but have worked with fellow mechanics that were with a union. They did not seem to miss the enviroment that much, that is why I ask the question.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not to hijack the scab mechanic thread, but I just have to know what useful purpose does a union serve?

I have never been in a union nor do I believe that working with a union could make life better for me.

Granted, I have not worked for a major airline, but have worked with fellow mechanics that were with a union. They did not seem to miss the enviroment that much, that is why I ask the question.

Critic to Author....

I haven't read your book, however..................................


Unions are like any organization. They have people. If the people have integrity then the organization has integrity.

Unions exists because management doesn't know how to not take for granted employees. Any organization including your own family is people. So it necessarily isn't management but the people in managment. Have you ever been taken for granted by your parents or spouse?

 

[skydivinguy]

unions

The IAM kept Air Midwest mechanics from having to take a 10% pay cut back in the late 80's. I and many others joined the IAM when management made that threat.

After that however, the union sucked. Collected dues and kept the deadwood on board.

I have since had A&P jobs with much better pay and benefits with no union involvement.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The IAM kept Air Midwest mechanics from having to take a 10% pay cut back in the late 80's. I and many others joined the IAM when management made that threat.

So the people in managment sucked?

After that however, the union sucked. Collected dues and kept the deadwood on board.

So the people in the union sucked?

I have since had A&P jobs with much better pay and benefits with no union involvement.

So the people in managment didn't suck?

 

[rjacobs]

I believe unions are a two edged sword. Sometimes they are great, sometimes they are bad, it depends on who the union leadership is. Some union leaders think they should butt heads with the company on any and every issue while others will flow with the company, while still others have another way of doing things. I think a good example is the AA overhaul base in TUL. For years it was a head butting contest and then when AA said they were going to close the base down because it was losing money, the union changed and started working with management and the base is still open and still making improvements by the unions working together.

 

[Gatorman]

Send me to the penalty box.......

The moderators in their infinant wisdom have kipped my thread from the mechanics board where is fully intended it to be and moved to the Union board.

Dear Sir(s),
If I had intended to hear the opinions of every other mellonhead on this forum, I would have placed it in this newly formed board and enjoyed hearing all about the Flight Attendants, Pilots, Baggage Handlers, and Air Traffic Controllers.
But no, I did not wish to hear about them, I wanted the mechanic's opinion. The guys that put the wrenches to the planes, the avionics shop, the tire and battery shops...that is who I want to hear from.

Now, before you toss me into the Penalty box for having a bad attitude I would like you to think about how it would feel if someone moved your posting from the Corporate board to let's say, to the Ultralights board. You are both pilots talking about flying right?

So now, do as your conscience guides you.

Good day,
GATOR

 

[Majik]

Not to hijack the scab mechanic thread, but I just have to know what useful purpose does a union serve?

I have never been in a union nor do I believe that working with a union could make life better for me.

Granted, I have not worked for a major airline, but have worked with fellow mechanics that were with a union. They did not seem to miss the enviroment that much, that is why I ask the question.

I was never in a union before coming to NetJets. Prior to that I felt pretty much the same as you and asked myself, "What useful purpose does a union serve and how could a union make my life better?"

At NetJets, the pilots are the union. We have great leadership that comes from volunteers directly within our ranks. A majority of our membership have proven that they support our leadership. With this union of pilots we get a collective say in negotiating our pay, schedule, rest, hotels, meals, transportation, health care, work rules, disability insurance, loss of license insurance, health insurance, bases, 401k, vacations, seniority bidding, etc. Once we obtain a contract it gives pilots and management a written set of rules that must be followed by both sides. It cannot be changed without joint agreement between management and pilots.

If there are some trustworthy, energetic volunteers from within your ranks that are willing to sacrifice their time and effort, and they have the ACTIVE support from a majority of your fellow employees, your quality of life can be improved and protected. If there are no leaders within your ranks and/or a majority of your fellow employees are not willing to take an active part in their own futures, then a union is only worth what you put into it.
Nothing + Nothing = Nothing.

 

[paulsalem]

No union, if you don't like the job or the working conditions you are free to leave. If enough people leave the company, then the management will be forced to change working conditions to keep employees. Basically it’s capitalism. If I don't like the food at Wendy's, I’ll stop going there. So if I don’t like the working conditions at Wendy’s, I stop working there.

I look at a strike or threatening to strike as extortion.

 

[Majik]

No union, if you don't like the job or the working conditions you are free to leave. If enough people leave the company, then the management will be forced to change working conditions to keep employees. Basically it’s capitalism. If I don't like the food at Wendy's, I’ll stop going there. So if I don’t like the working conditions at Wendy’s, I stop working there.

I look at a strike or threatening to strike as extortion.

Don't view it as extortion - that's illegal. Think of it as a majority of the employees doing what you suggested they do individually - deciding whether or not to quit, only all at the same time. The company is still free to hire new employees, right?

 

[paulsalem]

Don't view it as extortion - that's illegal. Think of it as a majority of the employees doing what you suggested they do individually - deciding whether or not to quit, only all at the same time. The company is still free to hire new employees, right?

Well striking is not quitting. Striking is a tool used to get what the labor union wants, when the management won't give it to them.

Yes the company is free to hire new people. But those people will not be treated respectfully when they try to cross the picket line to come to work.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. But those people will not be treated respectfully when they try to cross the picket line to come to work.

And why should they be?

 

[paulsalem]

And why should they be?

Enough said.

 

[PCL_128]

Although I'm only a 1,000 hour CFI, so what do I know?

Enough said.

 

[paulsalem]

Enough said.

But I have five years of management experience at various companies.

And you're right, if I had 20,000 hours I'd probably change my mind

 

[PCL_128]

But I have five years of management experience at various companies.

And you're right, if I had 20,000 hours I'd probably change my mind

Do you have any idea how many airline pilots are anti-union when they get hired? Give them just a few months of living under draconian working conditions and their tune changes real quick. I'm a prime example. I was one of the most anti-union people you would ever meet. Less than a year into working at my previous non-union airline, my opinion changed real quick. I'm sure yours would too.

And no, it has nothing to do with how many hours you have. I could care less how many hours anyone has. However, how can you possibly know whether unions are necessary when you haven't even been a part of this profession yet?

 

[paulsalem]

Do you have any idea how many airline pilots are anti-union when they get hired? Give them just a few months of living under draconian working conditions and their tune changes real quick. I'm a prime example. I was one of the most anti-union people you would ever meet. Less than a year into working at my previous non-union airline, my opinion changed real quick. I'm sure yours would too.

That's what my roomate tells me. If I ever end up at a regional maybe I change my mind. I hope not though. But if I do I'll let you know.

how can you possibly know whether unions are necessary when you haven't even been a part of this profession yet?

Fair question. If enough pilots don't like the working conditions and quit. And since the conditions are so bad nobody will work there, then the management will be forced to make improvements in order to get and keep employees.

 

[PCL_128]

That's what my roomate tells me.

Sounds like a smart guy.

 

[paulsalem]

Sounds like a smart guy.

Hahaha, he's been corruped. Drinking the coolaid!

 

[Majik]

If enough pilots don't like the working conditions and quit. And since the conditions are so bad nobody will work there, then the management will be forced to make improvements in order to get and keep employees.

It doesn't work that way in the real world. To get a good job in aviation you must have experience. There will always be a long line of pilots willing to initially work for low pay and a poor quality of life while they attempt to gain that experience. The only way to convince management to make those improvements is to have leverage and the ability to negotiate. As long as there is a line of low-time pilots willing to work cheap the only leverage pilots have is to stand together and argue their collective worth to management. Management then has to make a decision; improve pay/working conditions or replace their experienced workforce. There's a big cost in hiring/training an entire workforce and it takes time. There's also a risk that customers may not want to fly in the back of that company's aircraft while those new pilots gain experience.

Either way, it's still management's final decision.

A lot of anti-union folks feel it's not right for people to try to improve working conditions within their company. They, like you, feel you should either accept the job and keep your mouth shut or leave. Employees legally having the choice to negotiate improvements just seems wrong to some.

 

[Brian a300]

You must look at Unions as a cheap insurance policy. I was at NetJets and now Fedex, keep in mind that once something goes wrong, ie missed trip, late show, dinged aircraft. The Union looks pretty good at this point.

If you don't have one, you are an at will employee and can be fired for any minor infraction. The Union Contract must be followed with the company. If there is no contract, then will may have to pay out of pocket to get your job back w/ an attorney. As was stated earlier though, the union is the people locally, if they have no integrity, then you are doomed to fail.

 

[Annie]

A third way?

I find in the last few months I have been thinking more and more about the "terrorist within".. We are so determined to rid the world of "terrorists". What are we doing to rid our country of organized terrorists? Those groups that refuse to live by a mutually agreed upon code of ethics? Those groups that manipulate our system and bully our people for their own benefits?

As for me I believe the gaming industry, the unions, the mafia, etc. are all groups that I would consider internal terrorists.

Is it not possible to have a "new system"? Why can't we have a system whereby the representative of employees sit down with management and design a future for the company with concomitant benefits for both? Why must it alway be us/them?

 

[PCL_128]

Why must it alway be us/them?

Because management makes it that way. Do you honestly think that those of us in union leadership positions wouldn't prefer to just sit down and work things out with management in a common sense fashion? Of course we would. We've tried. It doesn't work. Management creates the us-vs-them mentality. We were just forced to adapt to it and work within it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Striking is a tool used to get what the labor union wants, when the management won't give it to them.

Yes, and management has a similar tool - the lockout. They use it to get what they want when labor won't give it to them. Are management lockouts okay but employee strikes unacceptable?

 

[Occam's Razor]

I find in the last few months I have been thinking more and more about the "terrorist within".. We are so determined to rid the world of "terrorists". What are we doing to rid our country of organized terrorists? Those groups that refuse to live by a mutually agreed upon code of ethics? Those groups that manipulate our system and bully our people for their own benefits?

You mean people that would lie or mislead to achieve their goals? Those that would take advantage of others for their own benefit?

Let's leave Dubya and Dick out of this!

Let's focus on managements.

If the management population of the country was nothing but Aaron Feuersteins [www.opi-inc.com/malden.htm
www.columbia.edu/cu/record/archives/vol22/vol22_iss3/Feuerstein_SyCip_Botwinick.html
www.answers.com/topic/aaron-feuerstein ] then you might be close to correct in your assumptions. But the "organized groups" that manipulate for their own benefit include those who wear three-peice suits, and slough-off the huge bonuses they recieve while their employees take paycuts with a glib, "You gotta pay more to keep good people."

As for me I believe the gaming industry, the unions, the mafia, etc. are all groups that I would consider internal terrorists.

Here on Earth we try not to label with generalizations that come to us during peyote-induced hallucinations...but if your species functions well in our atmosphere only when you bypass logic and rational analysis...you go!

For yuks, try Googling "Tyco", "Enron", and "World Com". There's an education there for those who are searching for possible "terrorism" within corporations.

Is it not possible to have a "new system"? Why can't we have a system whereby the representative of employees sit down with management and design a future for the company with concomitant benefits for both? Why must it alway be us/them?

Awww! You're kinda cute when you're naive!

Next time you're reading the paper (no..not the soduku puzzle or the horoscopes) read some of the comments from any of the CEO's of companies that believe the "concomitant benefits for both" mean the employees take cuts while they get bonuses.

Knock off the "terrorist" crap and get a clue!

 

[Annie]

Dear Occam's Razor:

I was trying to group my examples by type of behavior--physical, life threatening bullying of anyone to get "co-operation" was the type of style I was trying to explain. I have even witnessed corruption in academia so great and so terrifying that the top guys walk away in fear.

I agree with you on the "greed is good" crowd--they have been a powerfully destructive force. However, when speaking of unions I am reminded of a time back in the 1970's when some of the loggers drove into town and complained to the school of Forestry Mgmt. at the university. It seems these guys without a diploma were already seeing that clear cutting did not work and had devastating effects on snow melt and water run off. Drier timber lands in late summer=more fire, less water for downstream irrigation=droughts, etc. Do you know what they were told by the most adamant environmentalists on campus?
"Go home--be thankful you got a job and shut up." These were also union people speaking--the teacher's union. This is just one example where unions have become so focused on the short term immediate solution that they refused to acknowledge the long term possibilities, or impact. Of course, management does the same thing. What I want to know is when does it stop? When do we recognize that some actions are evil, and some are just plain stupid? And, most importantly how can we handle these conflicts without bullying the little guy?

Your right I am a little tired lately, but I never use anything but a martini. So, I would appreciate it if you not accuse me of something that is not true. You have a right to think I am stupid, and I know I am naive about some things, but your posts with their razor sharp logic are always, well almost always, a welcome read!

 

[Gatorman]

HiJacked

I am going to have to cut the line on this one, my thread has been hijiacked :uzi:

First the moderators move it out from the mechanics board and now we are fighting the terrorist within.

Snot-nosed college boys

 

[Occam's Razor]

I am going to have to cut the line on this one, my thread has been hijiacked :uzi:

If that's the worst thing that happens to you today...you're doin' ok!

(And it's no more "your thread" than the jet's "yours" because you refill the hyd fluid)

First the moderators move it out from the mechanics board and now we are fighting the terrorist within.

"fighting"? Nah.

"terrorist"? Nah.

No terrorists here. A mis-applied label. Don't believe everything you read. The first one to the chalkboard didn't necessarily win the fight.

Snot-nosed college boys

That's "Captain snot-nosed college boy" to you!

Semper Fi!

 

[pilotyip]

Toyota & Honda = Non-Union, GM and Ford = Union

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Toyota & Honda = Non-Union, GM and Ford = Union

Wrong.

My Toyota truck was made by UAW union workers. My Toyota truck puts food on American tables. Ford and GM products put tacos on Mexican tables and Canadain Bacon on Knuck tables....

C'mon Yip... as a MI guy you should know this...

 

[Occam's Razor]

I was trying to group my examples by type of behavior--physical, life threatening bullying of anyone to get "co-operation" was the type of style I was trying to explain.

You equated unions with the mafia and terrorists. I am a proud trade-unionist and I resent the connection. The union I am a part of has never done anything remotely similar to "physical, life threatening bullying".

I have even witnessed corruption in academia so great and so terrifying that the top guys walk away in fear.

So, that means all teacher's unions are corrupt? Does Sister Mary Biceps' penchant for whacking me with a ruler in the third grade mean teachers are terrorists because I've personally witnessed a teacher beating a child with a stick? (They were small tacks and I wasn't sure they'd penetrate her habit when she sat on them...)

I agree with you on the "greed is good" crowd--they have been a powerfully destructive force. However, when speaking of unions I am reminded of a time back in the 1970's when some of the loggers drove into town and complained to the school of Forestry Mgmt. at the university. It seems these guys without a diploma were already seeing that clear cutting did not work and had devastating effects on snow melt and water run off. Drier timber lands in late summer=more fire, less water for downstream irrigation=droughts, etc. Do you know what they were told by the most adamant environmentalists on campus?
"Go home--be thankful you got a job and shut up." These were also union people speaking--the teacher's union.

Wow! Now THAT'S "terrorism"!

Thank Yahweh Timmy McVeigh only blew up a Federal Building instead of clear-cutting a section of forest!

[Mis-applied labels such as "terrorist" elicit extra sarcasm from my "special place"]

This is just one example where unions have become so focused on the short term immediate solution that they refused to acknowledge the long term possibilities, or impact.

In that case, you're right! Unions are nothing but terrorist organizations.

Sheesh!

Of course, management does the same thing. What I want to know is when does it stop?

Huh? You said "mafia", "gaming industry", and "unions"! Leave those sainted denizens of the corner offices out of this! Our benevolent overseers would DIE before they'd do something for a strictly short-term benefit or for their own personal gain! Ken Lay was actually on his way to an orphanage to give away the billions he stole from the employees and investors in Enron, when he was so tragically called home by Satan. Dennis Kozlowski is still trying to donate a kidney to starving tsunami victims (goes well with saffron rice!).

When do we recognize that some actions are evil, and some are just plain stupid?

There are two kinds of people in the World: Good and bad. And the "good" get to decide who's who. [Note naive rhetorical question countered with kindness and cliche instead of the harsh sting of weapons-grade sarcasm]

And, most importantly how can we handle these conflicts without bullying the little guy?

Ok...now you're getting warm. Unions exist because the toads in some managements [Note, not all managements are populated by toads] use the power of their position to crush individual employees. At some point our species realized that standing together as workers can balance the power wielded by the bosses.

It's not unique to companies. Despite advertisment that asserts otherwise, an Army Of One is not always a good idea. Matching firepower increases the probability of success. You might not believe it until you are being strong-armed by management and you would like your fellow employees to stand with you.

Your right I am a little tired lately, but I never use anything but a martini. So, I would appreciate it if you not accuse me of something that is not true.

Ok...then I accuse the moron who stole your password and posted something really lame. I hope you catch the guy...

You have a right to think I am stupid, and I know I am naive about some things, but your posts with their razor sharp logic are always, well almost always, a welcome read!

(Blush)

Me? You need to get out more.