Union mindset

[73GDog]

Bobbysamd:

I think in this context this should be 2 separate questions: "are they paid fairly?" and "how are they paid in comparison?" Are Southwest pilots paid fairly? They seem to think so (and they're hiring). How are they paid in comparison to Delta and United? Not as well. Are they paid fairly in comparison to Delta and United? Not really a valid question, in my opinion - you're comparing apples and oranges. The 'majors' are more cumbersome in large part because of the effects of heavy unionization. Note that Delta is in the best financial shape of the 'majors' - and that it is the least unionized of them.


RJFlyer,
A couple of points: How do you know Southwest pilots are happy with their current pay? I have several friends over there and they are just waiting to negotiate a new contract to increase their pay. You say they are not paid as well as Delta and United and I cannot verify this because you have to take into account their profit sharing which has done quite well for some of the more senior pilots. You said "note that Delta is in the best financial shape of all the majors - and that it is the least unionized of them. Well, Southwest is a 'major', and one of the most heavily unionized I might add, and they are in better financial shape than Delta.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Delta furlough grievance

RJ Flyer - I would suspect that you and Dave would be happy to see the major unions self-destruct anyway, so let us.

Not at all. I disagree strongly with your union’s position and arguments in your furlough grievance.

How should worker be compensated? Should there even be a labor contract? I get the feeling that you and Dave think that pilots should be at will employees only.

Not at all. I simply disagree strongly with your union’s position and arguments in your furlough grievance. (See a pattern of you not addressing the issue?)

In economic downturn, it's the company's right to furlough according to contract (and force majuere IS part of the contract - although the reasons for and degree and duration are subject to the labor courts).

So now you agree with the furloughs and do not support the grievance?

Five years from now we'll see. I'm confident that I'll still be flying for a major airline with a good contract, safe working conditions, and fair compensation. How about both of you guys?

I don’t believe my forecast of your economic future in your chosen profession is the issue here.
I simply disagree strongly with your union’s position and arguments in your furlough grievance.

I leave the doomsayers, defeatists, and union-haters to stew in their own misery and jelousy.

You’re name calling here, not addressing the questions I asked in my post.
I simply disagree strongly with your union’s position and arguments in your furlough grievance.

I’ll try to recap for you.

How can ALPA claim that the attacks of 9/11 are an economic event when ALPA itself has made 180 degree radical policy changes to react to a totally unpredictable and very dangerous situation: 1. pilots authorized firearms and the use of deadly force aboard an aircraft in flight and 2. reinforced cockpit doors. However, when passengers elect to increase their safety by avoiding the possibility of becoming a passenger aboard a kamikaze guided cruise missile, ALPA claims that it is an economic decision and does not trigger the force majeure clause in the contract.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Luckily Dave, our furlough grievance is none of your **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** business, so I don't have to waste my time explaining our position yet again.

We understand that you don't support our furlough grievance. We don't care.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Delta furlough grievance

Luckily Dave, our furlough grievance is none of your **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** business, so I don't have to waste my time explaining our position yet again.

We understand that you don't support our furlough grievance. We don't care.

FlyDeltasJets;

I’m glad your wife is allowing you to post today.

I have read your explanations on this board previously and they are not based in fact or principle. Your furlough grievance ignores the devastating loss of innocent civilian life, the bravery and loss of the fire and rescue personnel and the bravery and loss of the men and women of our armed forces who are fighting to defend us from further attacks.

By arguing that the attacks of 9/11 are nothing more than an economic event you diminish the real and true significance of 9/11. And you do it unashamedly to further your financial gain. I am sure you would deny the significance of the holocaust if you thought it would get you better contract terms.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Dave,

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my earlier post. I'll try again.


You don't get a vote. I don't care what you think of our case.


Rant away.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:

What happened? Suddenly against intelligent discussion?

You don't get a vote. I don't care what you think of our case.

The same could apply to you. You don't get a vote in the RJDC issue, yet you see fit to post long dissertations on why you disagree with it. Just because we don't have a vote doesn't mean we don't have valid opinions. But if I agreed with your grievance, I'm sure you'd love to hear it.

73GDog:

How do you know Southwest pilots are happy with their current pay? I have several friends over there and they are just waiting to negotiate a new contract to increase their pay.

Then why do so many want to work there? Why did your friends choose to work there, instead of Delta, United, Northwest, Continental, etc? I've not heard any Southwest pilots complaining that they're underpaid. They are, however, pilots, and as such feel that they are always entitled to more more more, look what the other guy's getting, gimme more more more.

You say they are not paid as well as Delta and United and I cannot verify this because you have to take into account their profit sharing which has done quite well for some of the more senior pilots.

Which supports my initial point. However, notice that even at Southwest the union has created its own B-scale, in that those hired after a certain date can't take part in the profit sharing. Benefits only the more senior - sound familiar?

Well, Southwest is a 'major', and one of the most heavily unionized I might add, and they are in better financial shape than Delta.

I knew someone was going to say this, and I suppose I should have been more clear in my original post. I was talking about the companies traditionally considered the 'majors;' i.e. The Big Five - United, American, Delta, Continental, and Northwest - all global carriers.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Delta furlough grievance

Dave,

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my earlier post. I'll try again.


You don't get a vote. I don't care what you think of our case.


Rant away.

FDJ;
I am not aware that anyone gets a "vote". Isn't it up to an arbitrator at this point?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

The rjdc directly affects me, my contract, and my union, so i think I have a right to offer opinions.

I am not against intelligent conversation. I believe that I have always been polite and respectful. As a matter of fact, you and I had a long discussion about our grievance recently. I am simply against rehashing the same argument over and over again, especially with people who have absolutely no stake in the matter. To say I would deny the holocaust is not exactly my idea of an intelligent conversation.

I'll say it once more. We do not deny the devastating events of 9/11. We do not deny the effects it has had on our industry. However, we do argue that these events satisfy the requirement necessary to violate our contract. Every example given are instances when the company is prevented from flying airplanes. That is clearly not the case. If it were, then ASA would not have grown by 32% YOY. You cannot claim forced majure for only certain types of airplanes.

That is our view. Your's, and Dave's may differ. But you are not affected by it, and you don't get a vote, so I really don't care to rehash the same arguments over and over. We'll have to wait for the arbitrator's ruling. You can hope we lose. I hope we win.

By the way, I have realized an error. There is another poster who has a little pic next to his name like Dave's. He posted a rather nasty post on another thread. I try not to respond to posts like his. When Dave posted, I thought he was the same guy, as i paid too much attention to the picture, and not enough to the name. Therefore, I was a little short with him. It was a case of mistaken identity.

Sorry Dave. My fault.

 

[73GDog]

RJFlyer,
I do not recall saying my friends chose to work at Southwest over Delta, United etc.. Not everyone is hired by their first choice of airlines. I have heard some Southwest Pilots complain they are underpaid and have met quite a few who left Southwest for Delta. My point was, I agree Southwest is a good place to work however, they are one of the most heavily unionized majors around and are doing quite well which negates the argument that heavily unionized airlines cannot be as profitable as airlines with few unions on the property. Management and the daily decisions they make have a far greater impact on profitability than do unions.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:
Just for clarification, I said nothing about the holocaust, that was DaveGriffin. Your grievances will ultimately have an effect on me and my airline, so I guess I have a right to offer an opinion, too.

But you are not affected by it, and you don't get a vote, so I really don't care to rehash the same arguments over and over. We'll have to wait for the arbitrator's ruling. You can hope we lose. I hope we win.

Ah, but I will be affected by it. Both of your grievances hinge on the same argument - that force majeure doesn't apply. So if you win your furlough grievance, you will also win the scope cap grievance, which will directly affect ASA and my job. An arbitrator will decide, so you don't get a vote, either. And DaveGriffin's questions and comments were directed at Draginass, so unless you and he are one and the same, you weren't asked to rehash the same arguments.

73GDog:

...they are one of the most heavily unionized majors around and are doing quite well which negates the argument that heavily unionized airlines cannot be as profitable as airlines with few unions on the property.

It certainly does not negate that argument. Don't discount the fact that their unions get along better with management. Could they be as profitable with Delta-parity wages? Certainly not. And would they be as profitable if they flew more than just 737s? Certainly not. So like you said, the fact that they are heavily unionized isn't the only factor. Management decisions are the biggest factor - if the unions 'allow' management to make the proper decisions.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

Actually, I do get a vote. Two, as a matter of fact. The sytem board is made up of two DALPA reps (my votes), two company guys, and an arbitrator.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Delta furlough grievance

Every example given are instances when the company is prevented from flying airplanes. That is clearly not the case. If it were, then ASA would not have grown by 32% YOY. You cannot claim forced majure for only certain types of airplanes.

FDJ;
This is exactly the distortion of fact that illustrates the lack of principle by which ALPA operates. Overall passenger miles are down. I think what angers you mainline guys more than anything is the fact that the natural reaction of passengers to cut back flying drives more business to the smaller airplanes. ASA is growing because it is more economical to utilize smaller planes to fly reduced loads of passengers. Passenger miles are down because the passengers have the same concern for their safety that pilots do.

The only decision passengers can make if they are concerned that Capt. Mohamed Atta will be in command of their next transcontinental 767 is NOT to fly. Pilots have the ability, through ALPA, to demand reinforced cockpit doors, sidearms and other measures. Just like the passengers reaction is a 180 degree opinion change from prior to 9/11, so is the pilot reaction. Both passengers and pilots seek to protect themselves from a deadly and unpredictable threat.

If this doesn’t qualify as force majeure then nothing ever will. Here is a quote I posted earlier and post again because it sums up ALPA’s true position very well.

"Capt. Stephen Luckey, longtime chief security official for the pilots group, acknowledged that the union's position is a 180-degree reversal. "That was on Monday," Luckey said of ALPA's earlier opposition. "We're at war now. We weren't at war on Monday."

Why are pilots allowed to seek actions that increase the chances of their survival but passengers are not? It is the threat of al Qaeda attack, and an interest in self-preservation, that is driving down passenger miles from the pre 9/11 levels, not economic reasons.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:

Actually, I do get a vote. Two, as a matter of fact. The sytem board is made up of two DALPA reps (my votes), two company guys, and an arbitrator.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the DALPA reps are there to present their case to the arbitrator. The company reps are there to present THEIR case to the arbitrator. That doesn't sound like a democratic voting process to me. But let's assume I'm wrong, and it is. Ok, so 'you' vote for the grievance, the company reps vote against it, and who decides? The arbitrator will make the final ruling. It's up to the arbitrator, no matter how you slice it. By the way, I don't 'hope' you lose. I merely believe that you will.

Nothing we say here will change anything, but that doesn't give you the right to be rude and insulting when someone posts an opinion that differs from yours.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

Yes, you are wrong. Each of the 5 man board gets a vote. Granted, the arbitrator's is the only vote in doubt.

Secondly, I don't think that I have been rude and insulting to anyone. I'm not sure where that came from. I was a little short with Dave, and apologized for that.

 

[73GDog]

RJFlyer,
I agree with most of your points. In your previous post, you were not being very specific. You essentially said there is a direct correlation between unionization and profitability which is not the case with Southwest. Why do you think Southwest and its' unions have a better relationship than most? I believe the difference lies within management. I would be willing to wager that if Southwest furloughed, their CEO would hold road shows in the pilot lounges and explain to the pilots why they are furloughing and answer any questions thrown at him. Leo has not made any effort to talk to the pilots and I believe his lack of interpersonal skills and ability to communicate with employees has a direct affect on the management/employee relationship. Delta management seems more comfortable suing its' pilots and violating the contract they signed rather than trying to form a healthy working relationship.