Union mindset

[bobbysamd]

Hey, Pub . . . .

Just to clarify, was it not the circa '85 United strike bring on "A" and "B" scales? Remember how United brought in and trained other pilots in anticipation of a strike and paid them less than the current scale? Then, there was the strike, and union pilots came back, with their "A" scale.

I also recall that in '86 or '87, I believe, there was a strike at Continental. Our old buddy Frank Lorenzo, of Texas International fame, and who knew nothing about airline mentality and culture, started counting beans at Continental, and then at Eastern.

Publisher is correct about companies that can turn on a dime and change as opposed to the big dog (apologies for mixing metaphors). Yes, they are successful in these times, perhaps in part because there is less union influence. Are they paid fairly in comparision to pilots who work for more cumbersome, unionized companies?

The unions have to find a way to put furloughees back in the air but not through givebacks. Once again, the economy will get better because it always does. The mainlines will recoup their losses and their employees should be afforded similar consideration.

I'm taking a break just now from reading Flying the Line. One of Dave Behncke's principals was that all airline pilots should be paid equally, no matter where they work.

 

[RJFlyer]

Bobbysamd:

Are they paid fairly in comparision to pilots who work for more cumbersome, unionized companies?

I think in this context this should be 2 separate questions: "are they paid fairly?" and "how are they paid in comparison?" Are Southwest pilots paid fairly? They seem to think so (and they're hiring). How are they paid in comparison to Delta and United? Not as well. Are they paid fairly in comparison to Delta and United? Not really a valid question, in my opinion - you're comparing apples and oranges. The 'majors' are more cumbersome in large part because of the effects of heavy unionization. Note that Delta is in the best financial shape of the 'majors' - and that it is the least unionized of them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for better pay for all of us. But in tough times, people have to make certain choices and sacrifices. The current choices/sacrifices seem to be concessions or furloughs. The old saying holds true: "you can't have your cake and eat it, too." You can't keep your 'industry-leading' pay rates, and keep all your jobs. Take your choice. In order for the airlines to survive in the current climate, they need to reduce labor costs. Look at AirTran. The pilots took pay cuts across the board, rather than have people furloughed - that's 'brotherhood,' if you ask me. How else might labor costs be reduced? Voluntary early retirement and leaves of absence might work, but for some reason the Delta pilot group either didn't want or weren't offered that option. Why not? Again, I'm not against a better wage - but there's a time and a place for everything, including 'industry-leading' contracts. Now is not it.

 

[flx757]

Bobbysamd,

American, as publisher mentioned, was the first carrier to put a "B" scale into the pilot contract, and others followed. The strike at CAL was in '83.

 

[Rvrrat]

Union leadership carrying out any agenda not approved by the membership is just as bad as any capitalist in history which prompted union formation to begin with. Just as w&b is important to a safe flight so is honest balance required between employer & employee. When either is tilting the scale all involved can consider themselves to be on "The Road to Serfdom."

 

[enigma]

Re: Hey, Pub . . . .

Bobby,
Crandall invented B scales. He convinced the senior people to accept a pay scale that would screw "newbies", his strategy ultimately came back on him when the "newbies" grew to outnumber the A scalers.
As for Lorenzo, as much as I despise him and his attitude towards working men, he is not responsible for EAL. He bought Eastern only after the machinist union boss and Borman (If memory serves) played chicken with everybody elses livelyhoods. They all lost.

Personally, I blame most all of the trouble of the past 20 years, not on union nor management, but on grandstanding politicians who pushed deregulation onto an industry that wasn't nearly prepared for the problems. Senator Kennedy of Massachusetts, needed a platform to gain the medias attention so that he could continue his presidential aspirations and deregulation was it. Ultimately, he and a liberal activist lawyer named Phil Bakes(later the CEO of CAL under Lorenzo) managed to make enough waves that Senator Cannon, Chair of the transportation committee, decided to steal their thunder and take the glory for himself. In essence, the industry was put on a high wire and the safety net was torn down just so that those politicians could have an "issue".
Don't get me wrong, deregulating the industry was needed, but it should have been accomplised with an intelligent plan. Ultimately, the old line majors with their "regulated" cost structures, would have to cut costs, and when they did things got ugly, leaving scars that we still see today.


regards
8N

 

[bobbysamd]

"B" scales and deregulation

Thanks, guys, for the corrections on dates and parties. I do believe that United had a "B" scale embroglio as well during that time. We also must include Carl Icahn among the opportunists of the time. Very similar, in many ways, to E.L. Cord in the '30s.

While I would hold fast to my theory that a conservative mood and bad times eroded much of the unions' clout, Enigma makes a point about deregulation. I see that more as a conservative concept, even though liberal Sen. Kennedy may have latched onto it. Conservatives want less government, fewer laws and fewer regulations governing our lives.

Just the same, having said all that, there's a place for the union. Pilots need to be represented to ensure companies treat them fairly and establish reasonable work rules, as well as proper pay.

It's not a perfect system, as Rvrrat points out. I go back to my example from the last discussion about grocery workers. Supermarkets where I live are union shops. Every employee has to join the United Food and Commercial Workers Union (formerly the Retail Clerks where I live). This is a strong union which negotiated a good agreement for its members. Good pay and benies for what really is semi-skilled work. Undoubtedly these items cost money, and the stores cannot pass them on entirely to consumers. So, what management does to skirt the contract is hire primarily part-time employees. They don't have to provide benefits to part-time employees. The irony of it, though, is these part-time workers still have to join the union! They are paying union dues and have to go on the lines if there is a strike, which there was here three years ago, but are still only part-time workers.

Unions are a complex subject. Once again, some course in American Labor Movement should be part of the flight training curriculum.

 

[Draginass]

RJ Flyer - I would suspect that you and Dave would be happy to see the major unions self-destruct anyway, so let us.

How should worker be compensated? Should there even be a labor contract? I get the feeling that you and Dave think that pilots should be at will employees only.

I don't know about you, but I have a contract with my company whereby I provide services in return for predetermined compensation. It's in my best interest (to a point) to ensure that the company is profitable, thus I comply with my responsibilities under the company agreed to contract. In economic downturn, it's the company's right to furlough according to contract (and force majuere IS part of the contract - although the reasons for and degree and duration are subject to the labor courts). My labor is a fixed cost just like fuel and acft leases. Like the fuel and lease companies, if I (or rather union as a whole) feel it's in our own self-interest to do give-backs, so be it.

As far as business increases go, it is increasing according to the company and my own observations in flying packed airplanes, both narrow and wide bodies, domestic and international routes. 9/11 has accelerated the retirement of inefficient 727 whose capacity isn't needed right now. Yields are down granted, but I they'll follow up also as the year and economy progress.

I think the system works - not perfect, but probably as good as practically possible given the foibles self-interests of human beings. Five years from now we'll see. I'm confident that I'll still be flying for a major airline with a good contract, safe working conditions, and fair compensation. How about both of you guys?

I leave the doomsayers, defeatists, and union-haters to stew in their own misery and jelousy. In the meantime, I'm concentrating on getting my airline a full head of steam again, and getting my union brothers back to work - which is already happening.

Have a nice life. I will.

 

[enigma]

Re: "B" scales and deregulation

While I would hold fast to my theory that a conservative mood and bad times eroded much of the unions' clout, Enigma makes a point about deregulation. I see that more as a conservative concept, even though liberal Sen. Kennedy may have latched onto it. Conservatives want less government, fewer laws and fewer regulations governing our lives.

Dang right we need the union, however, we may disagree on why. But that's a different discussion.

About deregulation. You might be surprised to learn that most of the principals behind airline deregulation were liberal democrats and liberal academia. It's been a while since I read up on the issue, but some of the names I remember were: Ted Kennedy, Phil Bakes (spent time on the left side of watergate), John Robson (who recently died) Bill Clintons personal lawyer ( the guy who defended him in the Paula Jones/Monica deal. sorry I don't remember his name), the guy that Clinton appointed to the supreme court (Steven Breyer, I think), Cornell University Professor Alfred Kahn, and others.

I think that in concept, you are correct about conservatives wanting less government, but not at the expense of having an industry placed into turmoil. You see, when that happens, they lose money. I would guess that the conservative leaders of industry were probably pretty content with the regulated state of affairs. Of course, if I really knew, I would write a book and make a lot of money, so take my ideas as my opinions and keep on thinking for yourself.

regards
8N

 

[RJFlyer]

Draginass:

I would suspect that you and Dave would be happy to see the major unions self-destruct anyway, so let us. How should worker be compensated? Should there even be a labor contract? I get the feeling that you and Dave think that pilots should be at will employees only.

That is entirely untrue. There certainly is a need for unions, if for no other reason than everybody involved in aviation is inherently "me-oriented." Everyone is out to screw the other guy, and the only way to keep it in check is with unions. However, I do believe that in many cases, the unions overstep their bounds. Rather than merely helping to determine a fair wage and working conditions for their members, they put unnecessary demands on how a company does business. That is what I disagree with. A company should not have to defend itself against laying off people when the economy goes south. Very few other industries do. I know your company signed a contract. But there are provisions in that contract that are absolutely ludicrous, such as being unable to furlough or reduce the number of aircraft "for economic reasons.' That is asinine, and the company would not agree to it if the union didn't have a gun to their heads (read strike). I suppose its like carmakers who know there is a defect with their car - the cost of recall is higher than the cost of litigation, so they don't recall the defective vehicles. Mgmt probably figures a strike would be more economically damaging than keeping unnecessary people and airplanes, so they sign the contract. Both options are economically damaging, and they have to choose the lesser of 2 evils.

force majuere IS part of the contract - although the reasons for and degree and duration are subject to the labor courts

That's right. And statements like FlyDeltasJets' "I just want them to abide by the contract they signed" work both ways.

As far as business increases go, it is increasing according to the company and my own observations in flying packed airplanes, both narrow and wide bodies, domestic and international routes. 9/11 has accelerated the retirement of inefficient 727 whose capacity isn't needed right now. Yields are down granted, but I they'll follow up also as the year and economy progress.

Again, load factor is up, but on reduced capacity. And how can 9/11 'accelerate the retirement of 727's whose capacity isn't needed,' yet not qualify as 'force majeure?'

I think the system works - not perfect, but probably as good as practically possible given the foibles self-interests of human beings.

It works for YOU, and that's what matters, right? If it isn't perfect, that means there's room for improvement. Most seem to be of the opinion that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Nothing will ever improve with this mindset.

I'm confident that I'll still be flying for a major airline with a good contract, safe working conditions, and fair compensation. How about both of you guys? I leave the doomsayers, defeatists, and union-haters to stew in their own misery and jelousy.

In 5 years, I'll probably still be with ASA, and trying to get on with a major. I imagine it'll take that long for the airlines to rebound and re-absorb all the guys currently displaced, then I'll get my chance. Just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours, doesn't mean I am a doomsayer, a defeatist, nor a union-hater; I certainly am not miserable nor jealous. For the time being, I am right where I want to be. I think the unions are a good thing to a certain extent, but definitely need improvement. I am glad you are working hard to get your company back up to speed. It would behoove more of your colleagues to follow your lead, instead of holding up the recovery process by complaining about how the company is screwing them and expending energy filing grievances.

I will have a nice life too, thanks.

 

[publisher]

Final

As this discussion comes to an end, suffice it to say that unions probably do a better job of maximizing their members compensation in good times than assisting in them in tough times.

We should all remember that these contracts were designed to appeal to the simple majority. It is perhaps the only thing that both parties are in agreement, they want 50.1%.

The fact that airlines fall under the Railway Labor Act says it all. We have a system that lives in the past, is archaic, and does not reflect the current economic facts.

Labor sometimes handcuffs the companies it controls to where they are no longer able to compete. While labor was locking up the auto business, the Japanese and others came and took giant chunks of their market.

Unions can get so big themselves, perhaps they need a union to organize them.

 

[enigma]

Re: Final

Publisher.

Unfortunately you are correct. It amazes me that we continue to negotiate as if the industry existed in a vacuum. I sincerely believe that we could all make more money in the long run if we would find a way to recognise the effect of the market economy on our business.

regards
8N

BTW, it is something of a miracle that anyone can convince 50.1% of pilots to agree on anything.

 

[bobbysamd]

Union to organize unions

Once again, Publisher and I have found common ground. I say again, the pilots' unions need to find a way to get their furloughees back in the air.

BTW, I thought the AFL-CIO was the "union" that organized unions.

 

[kilomike]

Need for Unions

I have read with interest everyone's remarks about the union issue. I believe that we need to have strong unions to prevent workers from being cheated out of a decent livelihood.

How the (unprintable) can someone live on $7.50/hour and support a family?? Pilots of course need workplace protections but other workers need unions even more so. There are huge companies giving executives excessive bonuses and overly inflated salaries at workers' expense. I can remember when there were protests in Hartford when workers were being laid off while the executives were receiving huge bonuses for laying off the workers!! This type of thing is an outrage and I would like to see stronger unions available to put this kind of nonsense to a stop.

For anyone interested in learning more about the labor movement and the airline industry, I highly recommend reading both editions of Flying the Line. Tells it like it is!!

Kilomike

 

[publisher]

rates

The fact is that you are not getting much sympathy when you have protestors on the line making six figures.

The problem is disparity. The answer is not one list. The answer is not a bunch of false handcuffs on management that ignore they will always be facing competition from other companies marching to a different drummer.

Unions are not the answer to the executive bonus situation. Shareholders protest is required for that. Most of those bonus pools are strictly driven by stock performance, not necessarily operating performance.

the bottom line is that new hires are not represented at the bargaining table and the money will go the quickest route to a 50.1% margin. Everything else is rhetoric.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Delta pre 9/11 furloughs

QUOTE]Originally posted by trainerjet
Dave

If you are going to present something as FACT...have your facts straight. Your last "fact" is, in fact, NOT a fact.

Prior to 9/11 at least 4 ALPA carriers that qualified under the DOT's definition of at least National carrier status had pilots on furlough, and a 5th had sent out furlough notices to be effective Oct. 31.

And of the Major carriers, DAL, UAL and USAirways had already announced a hiring freeze prior to 9/11. [/QUOTE]


trainerjet
My comments were addressed to Draginass’ comments and specifically focused on the Delta furlough grievance. My facts were 100% accurate.
FYI: Hiring freezes differ from furloughs. The Delta pilots’ union is not grieving hiring freezes.